The Surprising Connection Between Sports and Baking, with Jessie Diggins

Episode Transcript

- [Jax] So, what do you do to hit those gains when you're baking? Right? You put protein powder in your pancake mix? Using Greek yogurt? I don't even know what's allowed.

- [Jessica] From King Arthur Baking Company, this is "Things Bakers Know." I'm Jessica Battilana, employee-owner at King Arthur Baking. And today we are doing something a little bit different.

- [Rossi] That's because David's not here.

- [Jessica] David's not here.

- [Rossi] Time to party! No, I am Rossi Anastopoulo. I'm also an employee-owner at King Arthur Baking. I'm the producer of "Things Bakers Know." If you hear my name at the end, that's why.

- [Jessica] You're the brains behind the operation, basically.

- [Rossi] Yes. The woman behind the curtain.

- [Jessica] Yes.

- [Rossi] More importantly, I'm not David. David quit in protest of today's episode topic.

- [Jessica] Well, what is today's episode topic?

- [Rossi] Today we're talking about, as you said, something a little different. We're doing sports and baking.

- [Jessica] Sports and baking. I'm so excited. Are you ready for some, I don't know, football? Is that what they say?

- [Rossi] Football. We're in football season, yeah.

- [Jessica] I have not quit in protest. And I think it's funny that of all of the things that we have talked about on this podcast, it's sports and baking that had David tapping out. But it wasn't only because he's not into sports himself. I think he also, well, he was deferring to you because you are the queen of sports.

- [Rossi] I would say I know a thing or two.

- [Jessica] Yeah. Or three, yeah.

- [Rossi] Or three. I like to say that I majored in sports in college, which is not untrue. My major was sports and social issues.

- [Jessica] Oh.

- [Rossi] So I studied sports. I have worked for an MLB team, an NBA agency, and mostly I just watch a lot of sports and follow it very closely. So, this is kind of my other passion outside of baking.

- [Jessica] Yeah. I mean, I've gotten to know you and your fanaticism around sports over the last few years. And now I feel like, okay, the Tarheels are the team to root for and Duke's terrible. And I don't know.

- [Rossi] That's all you need to know. That's all you need. If you know one thing, then that's it.

- [Jessica] I don't know a lot about professional sports, although I will say I can become a fair-weather fan at any point, and I often do. So, I get deeply obsessed with the sport when the going gets good or interesting.

- [Rossi] Exactly. Well, you know, that's the most fun way to be. But I think that deep obsession is a key thing that following the rabbit hole is kind of the overlap between sports and baking that we see and kind of that very maybe not obvious similarities between the two, but there is a reason, not just because of me, that we decided to do a whole episode about sports and baking.

- [Jessica] Yeah, and at first when we brought this up, people were sort of wrinkling the noses, like, "Really? Sports and baking?" But the more we started to think and talk about it, the more sort of intersectionality we found. And to be clear, we're not talking about baking as a sport. We are talking about sports as in football, basketball, baseball, cross-country skiing, hockey.

- [Rossi] Air hockey, anything.

- [Jessica] Ping pong, badminton, and the ways that that sort of intersects with the world of baking. We first started thinking about doing this episode when we saw the San Francisco 49ers quarterback, Brock Purdy, baking. He posted to his Instagram, he was making pizza and he was using King Arthur flour, which of course we love to see. And then I started to do a little bit of research about, okay, what other professional athletes are involved in baking in their spare time? I mean, we saw then that three-time Olympic runner, DeeDee Trotter, which may I just say is the absolute best name for a runner of all time. She retired from running and then became a professional pastry chef. And these aren't isolated incidences.

- [Rossi] No. We started to kind of see a pattern emerge. Turns out the Cal football team, the college football team, they bake chocolate chip cookies together to bond, which is adorable.

- [Jessica] So cute.

- [Rossi] And we saw some other, you know, some NFL players who bake on the side to relieve stress and have an outlet outside of sports. There's some professional athletes, some other football players who, after they retired, they opened a cupcake shop.

- [Jessica] I love that.

- [Rossi] And so you can really see there's kind of like a little pipeline between baking and sports. And we think there might be a reason for that. There are a couple reasons actually. One, when we talk about baking, we think of it as this relaxing, joy-filled practice. There's so many reasons that we do it and it kind of grounds you in the moment. It allows you to just focus on the task at hand and use your hands and be in a very present state. And so we see these athletes, including the one that you talked to later in this episode, who really use baking to relieve all the tremendous stress and pressure that come with being a professional athlete.

- [Jessica] Yeah. Can we spoil the guests? I mean, because I was so excited.

- [Rossi] So people stick around.

- [Jessica] Yeah, I am a huge fan of our guest who I'll talk to later in the episode, Jessie Diggins, Olympic cross-country skier, just the GOAT. And it was so fun to talk to her. It's interesting too because I think, yes, it's true, we think about baking as a stress reliever and that was sort of how I was framing it. I was like, "Okay, you've got this high-pressure job or you're pushing yourself as an elite athlete and then baking is sort of the antidote to that." But it's actually more kind of interesting and more complicated than that. So I started to think like, "Okay, are there other reasons?" And frankly, I was also wanting to legitimize this idea that we had about the connection between sports and baking. And so I was like, "Okay, I'm going to talk to a true expert in the field." So I put in a call to noted human performance psychologist Justin Ross, who was just so gracious in taking time to talk to me. He works in Colorado with a lot of endurance and professional athletes, and he too had noted the connection between these athletes and baking. So I sent him this email and he wrote back immediately, was like, "Yes, I think there is this connection." And so Dr. Ross and I hopped on a call and he said that what he thinks draws athletes to baking is that they love process. And this was kind of an interesting take for me. He was saying that when you're preparing for an athletic event at a very high level, there's the preparing, there's the training, there's the event itself, and then there's the recovery in the post-game. And athletes are constantly tweaking every piece of this, right? They're thinking about like, "Okay, if I prepare in this certain way, if I eat this certain thing, if I train at this altitude, how can I optimize? How can I be better? How can I improve?" And he said that evaluating the outcome is sort of based on all of these tweaks made along the way. And I was like, "Well, this sounds like a lot of sourdough bread bakers I know."

- [Rossi] So many. I mean, we hear our colleague Martin Phillip, we hear our test kitchen colleagues. They're always thinking about, "Okay, what if I bump up this tiny little factor? How will that affect the outcome? And what is the outcome I'm going for? And what are the conditions in which I'm operating?" It does sound exactly like sourdough baking especially, but so many forms of baking.

- [Jessica] Yeah, and all of those little elements that you can control and all those elements that you can't control all the way and how that impacts the final result. And he was saying that athletes, professional athletes, like a lot of professional bakers, I think, are always working toward but rarely thinking they've achieved true mastery.

- I think this is key, this idea that there's no summit of the mountain. There's no, "Check, I did it, I'm done." There's always the pursuit of, what is something better? How can I just advance this a little bit further? And that's how sports and baking both become a lifelong practice. It's not something you ever complete. It's something that you are always kind of immersed in.

- [Jessica] And I think that's true even if you're not a professional athlete. I do think that even some amateur runners are thinking about these sorts of things. When I talked to Jessie Diggins, she has retired from cross-country skiing back in March of this year, but now she's training to run like a 100-mile race. And I was like, this just relentless pursuit, right? Like, this relentless pursuit. And then the other thing I was talking to Dr. Ross about is this idea of flow state, which I have thought about as it relates to food and cooking a lot in my own career. And Dr. Ross was sort of... He said, "Well, flow state, there are some parameters to it." And he explained them as follows. He said it has to occur in the present moment. You have to exhibit a lack of ego and be deeply curious about the process. You have to be detached from the outcome, which honestly I've never been in my life, but okay. And it's supposed to be connected to an experience you're having with your body. So it typically involves movement. And he was saying it's something that athletes experience if all the stars are sort of aligned. The hope and the dream is that you can get deeply immersed in the task at hand and kind of enter this flow state. But it also happens to musicians, it happens to artists, and I think it happens to bakers too.

- [Rossi] I think so, yeah. You're just totally in the zone, you're fully focused, you're kind of operating in that optimal state of consciousness, which is something that...

- [Jessica] I also never do.

- [Rossi] Yeah. Like, I don't know, sometimes things get a little messy in the kitchen. I don't know if that's happening, but I think it totally happens when you're baking. And I love that description. It reminds me of this book that my dad made me read as a young tennis player called "The Inner Game of Tennis," which many people who don't play tennis read because it's all about this same kind of mindset of detaching the outcome, you hit a ball, you don't say it's good or it's bad that it went in or out. You just say, "Oh, it went out."

- [Jessica] "There's a ball."

- [Rossi] Yeah. But you say like, "Oh, let me be curious about why that happened. Okay, maybe I'll do it differently this time." And it kind of is this broader applicable mindset that is great for all sports, but great for any pursuit or any creative passion.

- [Jessica] I mean, I will admit when you get to that feeling where you're really locked in on something, it is sort of a magical feeling where your focus is so intense, everything else is sort of not part of the equation. And I mean, like I said, this happens to me very rarely.

- [Rossi] But that's why it's so special too, because when you hit it, again, it's all those hours that you've put into a practice culminating in that moment. And again, that's kind of why you do it, right?

- [Jessica] Yes. I think this is interesting. And I think it's not just this connection of like, "Oh, people that do sports also like to bake." 'Cause there's people that do all sorts of things that also like to bake. I think there is something deeper here.

- [Rossi] Yes. And I will say something I've noticed is that there's a real overlap in the running and baking community here at King Arthur.

- [Jessica] Yes. Yes.

- [Rossi] A lot of our colleagues are very dedicated runners.

- [Jessica] Yes.

- [Rossi] And dedicated bakers. I don't think that's a coincidence.

- [Jessica] No, I don't think so either. And long-distance runners, ultra marathoners. I mean, again, I'm not one of them, but yes, it seems like more than is anecdotal. There are also... So okay, we've talked about athletes who bake and why they might bake, but baked goods also show up in sports in lots of other different ways, which I think further reinforced our desire to want to do this episode.

- [Rossi] Yes. Any dedicated listeners of this show will remember I came on all the way back in Season 1, which is crazy, we're on Season 4, to talk about the overlap in biscuits and basketball.

- [Jessica] Yes.

- [Rossi] At my alma mater of UNC.

- [Jessica] This was a great story. We should put that in the show notes so people who haven't heard it can go back and listen to this.

- [Rossi] Yes. Spoiler alert, it involves people chanting "biscuits" in a crowded basketball arena. Very fun. But there are a lot of traditions around baked goods and sports. There was a longstanding tradition at Texas Tech of fans throwing tortillas onto the field just before kickoff.

- [Jessica] What a waste of a good tortilla.

- [Rossi] I know. It's so sad. Especially now that you know those are good tortillas.

- [Jessica] I know. Well, anyone that listened to our tortilla episode know that I smuggled tortillas back from Texas. I'd be out on the field collecting them.

- [Rossi] Yeah, picking them back. Yeah. There's a Greek dancing tradition where you throw dollar bills and then the kids just go and pile them back up. That would be you and the tortillas in the Texas Tech football field. It recently got banned over player safety, which is really sad, but I think they should bring it back.

- [Jessica] Player safety?

- [Rossi] I know.

- [Jessica] Like they would slip on a tortilla or...

- [Rossi] I don't know.

- It would hit them in the head or...

- [Rossi] They're just singing all the fun out.

- [Jessica] Maybe it just felt like a pain to clean them all up. Or maybe food waste. I don't know. You taught me a new term related to sports and baking, which... Well, I'm not going to steal your thunder. Tell us about that.

- [Rossi] Yeah. So, when we were brainstorming this episode, we're thinking about these links between baking and sports. And I started thinking about this term that's thrown around all the time in team sports. It's usually used in college football. And that's the term "cupcake." And so this is usually referring to an easy walkover opponent. And so someone might refer to an upcoming game as a cupcake game or if there's kind of a week of high-level opponents playing very low-level opponents ahead of a big rivalry week. That's happening this month in November. So, in my home state of South Carolina, Clemson, who's very good at football, will play The Citadel, who is a tiny military college, not very good. And so that's a cupcake game for Clemson.

- [Jessica] I mean, it kind of reminds me of people also say "cake walk."

- [Rossi] Exactly. Yes. But very different origins actually, which is also interesting. And so I started thinking about, why is this term used? And even more so the deeper level of what it means. And so I'm guessing there's some sort of gendered implication here.

- [Jessica] For sure. I mean, I went to a women's college. I can smell a rat. Yeah, for sure.

- [Rossi] Cupcake meant to represent something weak, sissy, easily dominated, especially in this male-dominated sport of football. And there's also something which I think is kind of funny about nutritional value as well.

- [Jessica] Oh, yeah.

- [Rossi] So these games, the cupcake games, they're light, they're easy, they're simple to get down, but you don't really get a lot out of it. There's no real nutritional value there.

- [Jessica] Yeah, no meat.

- [Rossi] No meat. No meat. Well, this compares to some other types of games, like a dinner roll game.

- [Jessica] Oh.

- [Rossi] Which is a game you're supposed to win, but maybe it's not easy like a cupcake game.

- [Jessica] Oh, interesting.

- [Rossi] Think about eating a dinner roll. And then there's also spinach games. So that's a team that's an equal match to you, but harder to play against. If you win, you really get that boost, get that nutrition.

- [Jessica] Oh yeah, like Popeye.

- [Rossi] Exactly. It's just like Popeye, exactly.

- [Jessica] I mean, that is really interesting.

- [Rossi] Yeah. Unfortunately, it does mean there are no actual cupcakes.

- [Jessica] That is a missed opportunity, I think. I love that you have that weird trivia in your brain.

- [Rossi] Yeah. It's always out there. Once you start looking for these sports and baking connections, you'll see them. It's like a whole nother side of the world.

- [Jessica] I'd be curious too, if you were on a team, a professional team, a pickup league, I would love to hear from our listeners if your team has any special baking-related traditions, food-related traditions.

- [Rossi] Yes. Yeah, leave a comment or something on Substack...

- [Jessica] Let us know, leave a comment. I'm curious.

- [Rossi] Yeah, Spotify, Apple, anywhere. I want to hear.

- [Jessica] Yeah, I would be curious. We could start a list.

- [Rossi] Yeah. Well, now it's time to listen to a very fun conversation you had with, like you said, literally the GOAT of cross-country skiing, Jessie Diggins, a literal Olympian.

- [Jessica] A literal Olympian. It was totally a pinnacle of my career. I have been a longtime admirer of Jessie. I think... I don't know when I started following her racing career, but I know that there was a period of time at one of her Olympics that coincided with me having COVID.

- [Rossi] Oh, wow. That's a recipe to get deep into the Olympics.

- [Jessica] I watched a lot of Olympics. So yes, Jessie is an Olympic champion. She's a four-time Olympic medalist. And she's the most decorated cross-country skier in US history. She has been an inspiration to so many people, and anyone who is a fan can join me in saying, "Go, Diggins, go," which is a reference to her last-minute victory in a really wild race. So I was thrilled to talk to her, and she is a lot of fun, and I'm still hoping for that.

- [Rossi] And crucially, a dedicated baker.

- [Jessica] A dedicated baker in addition to being a skier. So, it was fun. It was fun to chat with her.

- [Rossi] Great. Let's listen.

- [Jessica] Jessie Diggins, I am so, so excited to have you on "Things Bakers Know." Thank you for joining us. I'm a huge fan of yours.

- [Jessie] Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm a big fan of all things King Arthur Flour. So...

- [Jessica] I mean, we love to hear it.

- [Jessie] It's very cool for me to be on here.

- [Jessica] This is an interesting time, I think, for us to be talking because you actually just retired from your career as a cross-country skier in, what, March of this year?

- [Jessie] Yeah, exactly. I've been retired for four or five months now, so fresh and new.

- [Jessica] Which I imagine... So, on top of all your other cross-country accolades, we also... And you've authored a book and you're on the speaking circuit, but also a little bird told us that you're a baker. So, are you spending a lot of time now in your retirement baking?

- [Jessie] Oh, absolutely.

- [Jessica] Yeah.

- [Jessie] So, actually, this is a fun thing. When I was on the Stratton team out in Stratton, Vermont, I sort of somehow slid into the role of the team birthday cake baker. And it started out with a cake for my teammate, Elena, and I made a three-layer chocolate Oreo thing just dripping with fudge. And it was so fun to make something so elaborate and over the top, right? Birthdays are so special, and it's a good time to go over the top.

- [Jessica] Yeah, totally.

- [Jessie] And there was a period of time when we had five or six birthdays over the summer, so every couple weeks I'd be like, "All right, here we go. What do they want? What can I make? How can I make them feel so special with baking?" And I feel like that, to me, is something baking represents. It's a way to share and show your appreciation for somebody. Like, "I made this for you." And to me, I think that's the thing about baking. It's not something you need. It's something you get to do. You have to eat, but to take the time to make cookies or cake or something that you just really enjoy, it's special. I think that it just shows like, "Oh, I was thinking of you. I made this for you."

- [Jessica] Yeah. And I'm glad to hear that you're doing more baking now that you are quote-unquote "retired." And I say quote-unquote because you're also training right now to do these ultra marathons, right? I guess you and I have maybe a different idea of what retirement is.

- [Jessie] I know. Well, truthfully... I mean, let's be honest, I'm 34 years old. I wasn't going to be able to retire. You don't retire from cross-country skiing. It's not American football. You are actually not set for life. You are going to . And that's okay. I'd always thought it would be so cool to try and run 100 miles. And I figured, "Okay, well, I better do it in a race format because you have medical checkpoints and aid stations, and I'm not just going to go in the woods and try this on my own." I want to do it safely and with some guidance and with a team around me because everything I've ever done has been with the team. So, I signed up and then I was like, "Well, got to train for this." And that's been so fun, just getting to do these big long adventures. And then where baking comes into this is there's only so many sports bars you can eat in your lifetime. And I might have already hit that quota. I might have hit the limit. I think by the time I was 30, I'm like, "That's it."

- [Jessica] Yeah. You had a lifetime supply.

- [Jessie] Like, "I can force them down, but I'm not enjoying this really anymore."

- [Jessica] Yeah.

- [Jessie] And so, for a long time on my easier training sessions... For sure, there's still a place where on the super high-intensity sport drink and gels, they've got their place. But if you're just out for a slow, easy, long ski or run or bike, I would bake muffins and bring muffins on the journey because I was like, "This tastes way better. It's more exciting to me. I'm excited to have this snack. It's fueling the training." So I did a lot of baking throughout my career, like training for Olympics fueled by banana muffins. And that was really awesome. And so now in training for this 100-mile, I'm experimenting with all sorts of different food, like what flavors and things might feel good on the palate after you've been running for so long and you switch it up, surprise yourself so that you're excited to eat something at 3:00 AM when your body thinks you should be sleeping.

- [Jessica] Yeah. Yeah.

- [Jessie] So it's a whole different side to food and experimenting with it, and how can I fuel this cool, crazy adventure?

- [Jessica] I mean, I think of you as an honorary Vermonter because you spent so many of your years training here in Vermont, but you're originally from the Midwest, from Minnesota. And I'm curious to know what is your favorite kind of Midwestern baked good? Is there something that you have that makes you think of home, of growing up, of the place that you came from?

- [Jessie] Yeah. Well, I'd say the first thing I ever learned how to bake was banana bread. And so that's why it's so special to me, is because as a kid, I would get to sit on the counter and mash the bananas with my dad, and that was so exciting. It was something we did together. And so that was the very first thing I learned how to bake. And also, then we would take the banana bread out on like a camping trip or something and have this wonderful tasty breakfast or a nice little treat after a hike. And it was so kind of integral to my upbringing. Banana bread actually played a pretty big role. The other thing I think about is we had these apple trees in our backyard, and my parents planted one the year that I was born and one the year that my little sister was born. And they sort of alternate years. Like, one year, one tree will have 10,000 apples, and the other year, the other tree's like, "It's my turn to shine."

- [Jessica] I love that.

- [Jessie] I don't know what that is, but it's kind of awesome. And so we would obviously make a ton of things with apples, a lot of apple pie, a lot of apple crisp. "I'm going to use these 10,000 apples." And so that also, like, apple crisp and apple pie reminds me of just sitting at the kitchen counter just peeling apple after apple after apple with my family. And that was a great memory.

- [Jessica] That's amazing. Do you have any sort of food-related traditions before big events? Like, is there something you eat the night before or something that you always want to eat after or is it kind of a free-for-all?

- [Jessie] It's had to be more of a free-for-all simply because you're on the road from hotel to hotel and country to country. And so I've tried really hard to become way more flexible. Like, if I have to have chicken and rice before every race, you might not get that. You know? Like, it's too bad. You're going to have to figure something else out. So, generally, before a race, I try to steer things toward very simple foods that are easier to digest. Chicken and rice is a great example because it's probably going to sit pretty well when you're nervous, even when you're working super hard the next day. I tried to create a routine that was easy to replicate or travel with. But I think one big myth I want to really take a moment to just absolutely crush into the ground...

- [Jessica] I love it. Okay.

- [Jessie] is that people all the time in different countries, all parts of the US, they'll come up to me and they'll be like, "Oh, you're an Olympic athlete. Oh, you probably don't eat that or you probably can't eat that." And I'm like, "Yeah, I do."

- [Jessica] I would think if you're an Olympic athlete, you get to eat whatever at any time, all the time. Like, yeah. Not only do I consume chocolate in some form almost every day, it is actually hard to fuel the incredible amount of training I'm doing without consuming some sort of treat or baked good or something.

- [Jessica] Yeah. Yeah, just to get the calories.

- [Jessie] Yeah, because we're training on average four hours a day, and that is moving time. That is sweating time. So you're going through 4 to 6,000 calories a day. You need to fuel the work you are doing. That's super important because you work so hard to get strong, and without giving your body the fuel and the building blocks it needs, you're just tearing yourself down. You're not actually...

- [Jessica] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

- [Jessie] It's so important to feel that work. And so I just want to dispel that myth because people will ask me like, "Well, what do you have? What's your cheat meal? What do you let yourself eat after a race?"

- [Jessica] Oh, interesting.

- [Jessie] And I'm like, "Nothing, because I allow myself to eat the things all the time."

- [Jessica] Yeah. Yeah.

- [Jessie And that's really an attitude that it took a long time for me to come to because there was a lot of societal pressure, a lot of notions of what you should do as an endurance athlete. I'm using air quotes for people listening, but I think it's important to say, like, all foods fit into my life. And no, I'm not going to fuel with only banana bread in the same way that I'm not going to fuel with only carrot sticks. Both of those things were bad for you.

- [Jessica] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

- [Jessie] And both of those things have a place in the larger scheme of how I live an enjoyable life and take care of myself.

- [Jessica] I think that's a great sentiment. And I always sort of bristle when people are like, "Oh, what's your guilty pleasure? What's your..." I just am like, "I don't..."

- [Jessie] Why does it have to be guilty? Can it just be a pleasure?

- [Jessica] It's just a thing I like to eat. Yeah.

- [Jessie] Yeah.

- [Jessie] Four hours a day of training. I mean, that sounds very hard. I mean, obviously I think being an Olympic athlete is harder than becoming a baker, but I think this idea of facing something that feels hard and how you sort of push to get better at it, I would love to hear what you think about that and how you would sort of inspire people to get past the hard part to the good part.

- [Jessie] Totally. And just so you know, I have tremendous respect for baking. I think it is incredibly difficult. I love watching "The Great British Baking Show."

- [Jessica] Yeah, me too.

- [Jessie] I don't know if I could ever do that. I know I can train for the Olympics. I don't know if I could do that. So, it is all perspective.

- [Jessica] Yeah. Yeah.

- [Jessie] Something seems hard until you become so used to it and so enmeshed in the pursuit of becoming better at it that over time it sort of becomes easier and easier, even though you are still working hard. But doing really hard things when it's with people who you really like, like a team that you have tremendous respect and maybe even family love for, and when you are passionate about the thing you are doing, it doesn't really feel that hard. Like conceptually, you know that what you're doing is hard. Maybe it seems, like. objectively nuts to go run in the mountains for six hours. But if you are inspired by the act of doing that and you get to do it as part of a team, then it's really just an opportunity. It's not that hard. Or even for me, the first time I tried to make a three-tier cake and I was like, "I don't know how do you stack it. What if it just slides off the table?" To me, that was very hard, but I was excited to do it for someone that I care very much about. And I was excited by the challenge. And so yes, it was challenging, but I loved it. And I think that's kind of how I approach anything that seems hard. Yeah, this is hard, but I love that it is hard. Because if it was easy, then I don't think I'd feel the same level of satisfaction.

- [Jessica] Yeah. I think that's true. And I also think there's this... I always, when I'm approaching something new, I think of it in, like, bite-sized pieces, right? Like, you're making the three-layer cake, but you're making the cake and then you're making the... It's like there's stages to it. And I think that's probably true with sports too. It's like you're not looking at all 100 miles. You're like, "Okay, I'm going to do 10 miles and then I'm going to do 10 more." And then it sort of builds on itself. And I mean, we always like to say, which probably applies to sports too, is practice makes better. The more you work at it, the easier it comes. I mean...

- [Jessie] I like that. Yeah. It's not practice makes perfect.

- [Jessica] No. Perfect's overrated. Perfect's overrated. And I think that's intimidating for people. Like, pursuit of perfection feels like a loser's game. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing your insight with us, and I'll be thinking of you as you get ready for this race.

- [Jessie] Thank you. Yeah, I think you know what? I'm going to be so psyched if I come into an aid station and there's brownies.

- [Jessica] Totally.

- [Jessie] Will not be mad about it.

- [Jessica] Yeah, I'm going to send an email to the organizers, see what I can do. Maybe we'll send them some King Arthur Brownie Mix and just, you know, try and tip their hands. Thank you. This was awesome. It's really fun to talk to you.

- [Jessie] Oh, thanks for having me.

- [Jessica] This episode is brought to you by our new Baker's Reserve Flour. And like athletes, this flour is extra-strong. It has 13.1% gluten-forming protein, which delivers a great rise, structure, and a pleasant chewy texture to breads. It also contains more of the whole grains bran and germ to support active fermentation in sourdough starters.

- [Rossi] Yeah, this is what's known as a high extraction flour or a T85 flour. So, it's really well suited for bread. And if you're a passionate sourdough baker, I highly recommend picking up a bag. It's a very exciting flour.

- [Jessica] And you can find it on our website, kingarthurbaking.com. All right. So it's time For our next segment, "Ask the Bakers." For "Ask the Bakers," we want to hear your questions. If you have a baking question for us, head to kingarthurbaking.com/podcast to record a voice message, and we may end up using it on the show. That's kingarthurbaking.com/podcast.

- [Rossi] And of course, if you have a baking question, simply cannot wait, your bread just deflated, your cake mix isn't coming together and you need an answer right now, you can always reach out to our Baker's Hotline via phone, email, or online chat. Just go to kingarthurbaking.com/bakers-hotline. That's kingarthurbaking.com/bakers-hotline or call us at 855-371-2253. That's 2253 as in BAKE.

- [Jessica] Super, let's hear our questions.

- [Caller] Hello. I live in Colorado at about 6,600 feet, and I've found high-altitude baking really hard to adjust for any consistent way. Water boils at about 197 degrees here and breads can overrise and then collapse because the gluten can't support the structure. And the usual advice, like use less yeast, more water, or flour, often feels too vague to be useful. Sometimes less yeast helps a lot and sometimes doesn't seem to matter much at all. It really seems to depend on the specific recipe. So I'm wondering, is there a more scientific approach to high-altitude baking? Is there some way to systematically figure out recipe adjustments for a given elevation instead of just relying on the general rules of thumb? Thank you.

- [Jessica] I love this question. Also, Colorado. I've taken note of the pronunciation of that.

- [Rossi] Yep.

- [Jessica] That is also a place where a lot of athletes train because of the elevation. So, this is a question we get a lot, but you did some work on this.

- [Rossi] Yeah, so the really amazing thing is we have a whole high-altitude baking guide on the website. So I would definitely encourage this caller to check it out and anyone who's baking at altitude because crucially it breaks out recommendations based on levels of altitude.

- [Jessica] Okay.

- [Rossi] Because the thing I learned... So we updated this guide recently and I wrote a blog post also about high-altitude baking. And so I talked to many bakers who bake at altitude, and unfortunately the takeaway is there's no silver bullet. There's no right answer. Conditions can totally vary based on how high at altitude you are. Sometimes you're at the same altitude, but just different conditions. It might be a little drier where you are versus someone else at a similar height, and so baked goods will behave differently.

- [Jessica] Oh, interesting.

- [Rossi] Some people I talk to, they would say, "I never make any adjustments and everything turns out perfectly." And some people would say, "If I don't make these adjustments, my baked goods are a disaster." So I wish I could say, "Do X and X and X and you'll be fine," but that's not the case. But again, our high-altitude baking guide, it's broken out like 3,000 to 5,000 feet, 5,000 to 6,000 feet, 6,500 to 8,000. And so that depends, and that will affect the level of changes you'll make to your recipe. This caller did mention many of the things that we recommend, right? So, the two kind of crucial things to know about baking at altitude: one, baked goods rise more, and that's because the air is thinner up there. So think about there's almost less resistance for something as it rises. So you do typically decrease the leavening, whether that's yeast in a yeast bread, baking soda or baking powder in muffins, cakes, et cetera. And then the other kind of crucial thing is that baked goods dry out faster. That's because the liquid evaporates more quickly. It's just drier at altitude. And so you often need to add more liquid.

- [Jessica] Oh, interesting. I mean, that makes sense. And the other thing I would say to this caller is, I mean, and I would say this to somebody at sea level too, it is good just to make the same recipes over... I mean, I know you want to have variety in your baking repertoire, but if you know that you like a sandwich bread, if you know you want a sort of master muffin formula, things like that, to make the same thing a few times and make those adjustments and take note of it for your specific conditions.

- [Rossi] Not unlike the sports training that we talked about earlier, yes.

- [Jessica] Yeah, so there may not be a one-size-fits-all guide, although I think ours is quite helpful, but from there you're going to have to make these little tweaks to suit your own environment. But we will link both your blog post and that guide in the show notes.

- [Rossi] And the nice thing about the guide too is that it gets on a deeper level than just some of these more recommended thing. It talks about oven temperature, baking time. Sometimes you want to decrease the sugar because of the increase in evaporation concentrates the sugar content. It has some other tiny tweaks that if this caller maybe has tried the main ones and those aren't quite hitting, maybe he can dive a bit more deeply into kind of you can really adjust all the levers in a recipe in a way that...

- [Jessica] Yeah. It sounds complicated. I'm going to stay at sea level.

- [Rossi] I know. I'm like, Colorado's beautiful but this might be a reason...

- [Jessica] But this sounds hard.

- [Jessica] I ran into this because I was baking a friend's wedding cake. She was getting married outside of Denver. And I knew, I said, "I can't bake the cake in Denver because what if it doesn't turn out?"

- [Jessica] No, too stressful.

- [Rossi] So I baked it at home. I baked the cake layers at home and then I put them in my carry-on suitcase, and I flew with the cake in my suitcase to Denver because high-altitude baking was just scary to me.

- [Jessica] Yeah. I mean, I would do the same. Well, I hope that is helpful to this caller and anyone who is baking in high elevation.

- [Rossi] Yeah.

- [Jessica] Shall we hear our next question? Let's do it.

- [Caller] Hi, Jessica and David. I have a question. So, I like to organize sports events with my friends, like kickball and football around Thanksgiving, and I love to bring them food. I was wondering if you had any suggestions for some baked goods that are easy to transport, that everyone would like and that are easy to make a big batch of. All right, thank you.

- [Jessica] That's fun.

- [Rossi] Yeah. Sorry to this caller. She doesn't get David today. She gets me.

- [Jessica] Ah, you know, she may be better off. Only time will tell. Yeah, I was thinking about this because I rowed crew in college and I...

- [Rossi] How did I not know this? So much lore.

- [Jessica] Yeah. And my son now also rows crew. And the snack game there for these regattas is extremely strong. Actually, I was recently at one of these regattas and one of the other teams was making a giant pan of paella.

- [Rossi] Oh my God. Can I come?

- [Jessica] I was like, "Wow." I know.

- [Rossi] Can anyone come eat paella?

- [Jessica] It looked so great. I was like... Because I remember the snack that we always had at my regattas in college was that Muddy Buddies. Do you know what I'm talking about?

- [Rossi] Oh, those were big on like...

- [Jessica] Which I haven't had in years. Well, that's not true. There's a packaged brand of Muddy Buddies. So Muddy Buddy, for anyone who doesn't know, is rice cereal, typically Chex. And Chex, I think, makes a packaged version of it. So it's Chex that's coated in peanut butter, it's coated in chocolate, it's coated in cocoa, and then confectioner's sugar.

- [Rossi] It's like everything delicious. You can't stop eating. We used to have it on the buses to tennis matches or basketball games and it would all be...

- [Jessica] So, when you're young like that and your metabolism is like that, I remember eating cereal bowls of that stuff. Now the idea of eating a cereal bowl of Muddy Buddies makes me feel a little gross. But anyway, so Muddy Buddies, always a good choice, but not really a baked recipe. I mean, of course there's some of the more obvious things like brownies, cookies. We also have a recipe for a brownie/chocolate chip cookie hybrid, Brookies.

- [Rossi] Yep. And they're baked in, if I'm not mistaken, like muffin tins, and so they're very easy to transport.

- [Jessica] Yeah, they're sturdier. So I think that's nice. But it's also nice to not always just bring sweet things. I mean, I guess. I don't know.

- [Rossi] Speak for yourself.

- [Jessica] Yeah, exactly. I'm like, ugh. So I think about things like empanadas, which you can make ahead and freeze and then bake off. We also have some new Pizza Turnovers that are made with our Flaky Puff Crust Pizza, which was our Recipe of the Year for 2026, that same dough to make basically like a registered trademark Hot Pocket-type thing. And so that would be a fun thing that's a little bit more substantial than just a sweet treat.

- [Rossi] A brownie, yeah.

- [Jessica] A brownie. I mean, a brownie is delicious.

- [Rossi] Yeah. Not to totally contradict your anti-sweet take, but I was also thinking the Brown Butter Rice Krispies Treat that we have would be amazing just because they're good for kids and adults. They do get a little squished, but that makes them better because they're supposed to be dense and packed.

- [Jessica] You know what? I was just thinking about those this morning as a matter of fact, because after we record, I have a meeting over in the test kitchen and I just was wanting to send a message like, "Just out of curiosity, is anyone making those Rice Krispies treats..."

- [Rossi] That has no need to be tested.

- [Jessica] But they were on my mind. That's a great choice. Those are so delicious. And you could double, triple, whatever. You could make a big batch of that.

- [Rossi] Exactly. Because it's really just a formula.

- [Jessica] Yes. And those, I will say, are above average.

- [Rossi] I feel like anything that has... Because obviously bars are great, but you want them to be sturdy and kind of compact. So any type of "cookie" bar, like a raisin-oatmeal cookie bar, I believe we have on the site. We have some chocolate chip cookie bars.

- [Jessica] Also, oatmeal is so healthy.

- [Jessica] Exactly. You going to go win that crew race.

- [Jessica] Yeah, exactly. I mean, and may I just say, though it is not revolutionary, is anyone ever mad to see a blondie? They are not.

- [Rossi] No.

- [Jessica] A blondie is delicious. And sometimes I make them, we have that Chiptastic Chip blend, which has butterscotch chips, milk chocolate chips, semi-sweet chips, white chocolate chips, which I can take or leave. So, those are always... And again, they can be made ahead. They can be frozen. You can cut them as big or small as you want.

- [Rossi] Yeah. No, those are really good.

- [Jessica] Yeah. I think that these are all... Well, of course I think they're all good suggestions because we made them, but hopefully some of them sound appealing to you and your crew. And also I just love that you get together for these friends sporting events.

- [Rossi] Yeah, it's really cute. You can invite us.

- [Jessica] I hope there are medals.

- [Rossi] All right. Should we listen to our next question?

- [Jessica] Yeah, let's.

- [Jax] Hey, what up, King Arthur? It's your boy Jax. And I had a question about protein and baking. So, what do you do to hit those gains when you're baking? Right? You put protein powder in your pancake mix? Using Greek yogurt? I don't even know it's allowed. So, can you let me know? I'm kind of new to this baking thing, so I appreciate it. All right, fam. Thanks.

- [Jessica] Wow. Do you know this person?

- [Rossi] Well, I did. So, I just started watching "Vanderpump Rules."

- [Jessica] Oh, okay.

- [Rossi] I'm like 15 years late to the game. But Jax is a very prominent character on that show. And for half a second I was like, "Is this Jax Taylor? Is he calling us?"

- [Jessica] Maybe it is. We don't know.

- [Rossi] Oh my God.

- [Jessica] We don't know.

- [Rossi] He would be trying to hit those gains. I mean, very...

- [Jessica] I mean, he and everyone else in the universe right now, except for me. Except for the two of us.

- [Rossi] We're carb-maxxing.

- [Jessica] And therefore we are uniquely equipped to answer this question. No, I mean, it is a topic that is on people's mind. I mean, I'm always like, "Eat a spoonful of peanut butter, people." Like, I don't know. I don't know. I truly don't know. But I know that people are interested in it.

- [Rossi] Yeah, and the good news is our test kitchen, as always, they have what the people want. This has been a thing for a while now, protein-maxxing. And so our test kitchen has been diligent about developing some high-protein baking recipes. So, Jax, good news, it is possible. So we have a couple great ones, actually. One is our Multigrain Protein Bread.

- [Jessica] May I recommend you put egg salad on that.

- [Rossi] Oh, yeah.

- [Jessica] Just double.

- [Rossi] Amp it up as much as you can.

- [Jessica] Yeah, just go for it.

- [Rossi] So that's a great recipe. It's like a sliceable sandwich bread.

- [Jessica] Also just delicious.

- [Rossi] Yeah, really good.

- [Jessica] Which, yeah, I mean, is not always the case. Sometimes things that are... I mean, and I'm just going to offer an early Jess-opinion/an aside, not everything needs to be protein-maxxed. I'm seeing some truly wild things in the world right now.

- [Rossi] Yeah, protein coffee.

- [Jessica] Yeah, like protein potato chips. You're like, "I don't know. I don't know."

- [Rossi] But bread, turns out, yes. Turns out that works.

- [Jessica] We also have the Protein Pancakes. Listeners may recall from our pancake episode, co-host David Tamarkin likes to smuggle pancakes in his pockets to the opera.

- [Rossi] But they didn't know that I was, like, behind the camera dying of laughter.

- [Jessica] I was dying. I mean, I was dying on camera.

- [Rossi] Almost fell out of my chair.

- [Jessica] And I have since told many people this story, and they're like, "I'm sorry, what?"

- [Rossi] But you should bring me... We know David really cares about protein.

- [Jessica] He does. So Jax, just throw those in your pocket for your next opera or what have you. So that's a good one.

- [Rossi] Yep. And we have Super Protein Pancakes and Protein Pancake Bites. So, if you're smuggling, maybe go with the bite. And we have Cottage Cheese Egg Bites too.

- [Jessica] We love a bite. We love a bite. Those are good. Those are baked in a mini muffin tin. And you don't have to be protein-maxxing to appreciate that. They're also really good for breakfast on the go. They're good for kids. They're small. They could go in a lunchbox.

- [Rossi] And another recipe that, even if you're not into protein, you should make it, is our Chili Crisp Cottage Cheese Flatbreads.

- [Jessica] Oh yeah, cottage cheese. Actually, there's still an ongoing cottage cheese shortage.

- [Rossi] Really?

- [Jessica] My favorite brand has not been at the grocery store for weeks and weeks and weeks.

- [Rossi] Oh my gosh.

- [Jessica] You get to the cottage cheese section and it's like a tumbleweed is blowing through it. Yeah. It's crazy.

- [Rossi] So you can't make these flatbreads.

- [Jessica] I know. I can't make these flatbreads. And I will say, like all things, the trends come a little bit later to Maine, so it tracks. Cottage cheese has now had its moment.

- [Rossi] In addition to these recipes, kind of looking out for ingredients in recipes that might amp up the protein. So I think anything with cottage cheese, obviously. Usually a good one, I would say look for recipes with Greek yogurt, eggs, or egg whites. I know that protein bread has a lot of egg whites in it to amp up the protein. So those are kind of good rules of thumb.

- [Jessica] And we don't really recommend just adding protein powder to things because gross. I mean, it will affect... Not just gross, because I mean, whatever, that's subjective. But I will say it will affect the performance of your recipe. It will affect the texture. It can affect the spread. So you can't just go tinkering around and throwing extra protein in there.

- [Rossi] Save that for your smoothies.

- [Jessica] Yeah, exactly. I mean, can you smear peanut butter on things after they're baked?

- [Rossi] Yeah.

- [Jessica] You can.

- [Rossi] Nature's protein powder.

- [Jessica] Yeah, exactly. I think those are all good suggestions, though.

- [Rossi] Yeah. And Jax mentioned he's getting into the baking game, so I think they're all pretty beginner-friendly too, really good entry-point recipes.

- [Jessica] Totally. So I hope that helps you hit those gains, as they say.

- [Rossi] Yeah, very important. Well, this is very exciting. I get to officially introduce our "Jess-opinions" segment in David's stead. So, every episode, we like to check in with Jessica to see what wildly surprising and full-throated ideas are in her head, a segment we lovingly call "Jess-opinions." Jessica, what is your sports and baking Jess-opinion this week?

- [Jessica] I thought about kicking this to you to get some of your opinions because you may act like you're just a mild-mannered, you know... But I know. I know that you've got some opinions too.

- [Rossi] I've spent too much time with you. You really have rubbed off on me.

- [Jessica] Yeah. It's a real protégé moment here. I mentioned to you in the lead-up to this something, and I think you're going to agree with this one, so perhaps it's not so polarizing. But there's a lot of "functional food" now. Like, I go to my gym and it's like one zillion bars and drinks and things. And why are they all disgusting? I don't understand.

- [Rossi] I agree with this one.

- [Jessica] I don't understand. There's some bars that share a name with my co-host that come in all sorts of flavors and all the flavors are bad.

- [Rossi] And they have some weird... Well, what I don't like about those bars and similar products is they have... The ingredients are not really food. They have some special type of fiber that essentially just slides right through your body, it's not getting absorbed. And that's not something you want to eat.

- [Jessica] No, and they're sweetened sometimes with fake sweeteners and they're flavored with fake flavors. And I just feel like we owe the athletes of the world more. And in fact, I talked about this with Jessie. She's gearing up to do this long race and sort of thinking about like, "Okay, what am I going to want at various intervals in this race? What's portable? What's delicious? What can be made with real food?" And I don't know if this is true and someone, I'm sure, is going to fact-check me, but there's also all the goos. That is what they're called, right?

- [Rossi] No, yeah. Yeah.

- [Jessica] That people consume on marathon, extreme sporting things such as that. And I had heard that you might as well just take a shot of maple syrup.

- [Rossi] Listen, I'd much rather do that. Yeah. I do not run marathons, but I'm going to start my five-mile walk and be like, "You know what? I need some maple syrup."

- [Jessica] "I need a shot of syrup." I mean, that might get me into ultramarathoning, if I found out there were shots of maple syrup along the way.

- [Rossi] Yeah. But think about it. I mean, it is, again, real food. It's just something that is meant to be consumed by your body in a way.

- [Jessica] And I mean, you have to figure this is probably like a billions-dollar industry, this sort of functional food. And so why can't it be better? Why can't it be more delicious?

- [Rossi] Yeah. Homemade granola bars. You can make a lot of this stuff yourself. We have those Date and Oat Energy Bars that...

- [Jessica] Oh yeah. Those are great.

- [Rossi] came out of our test kitchen that are very good and probably doing a lot of the same stuff that some of these bars are meant to that you buy.

- [Jessica] We have those No-Bake Balls that are like a peanut butter, oaty, chocolate chip.

- [Rossi] Put that in your pocket.

- [Jessica] Yeah, exactly.

- [Rossi] Just pop that in.

- [Jessica] Yeah. I just think there's a better way. And I also think that companies should be working harder and make things that are both functional and delicious. I get that not everyone wants to make everything from scratch.

- [Rossi] Yes. Yes. I like that. I support this one. This one's a good Jess-opinion.

- [Jessica] Thank you.

- [Rossi] Sometimes you say them and I'm like, "What is she thinking?" But this one's good.

- [Jessica] Well, speaking of things you could bake, I don't know, for sports of any kind or just for the joy of baking, what are you going to bake this week?

- [Rossi] I am baking our Harvest Pumpkin Scones.

- [Jessica] Okay.

- [Rossi] These are so good. They're actually one of the first King Arthur recipes I ever baked or wrote about the blog. And they are just like fall, and they're fall in a scone. I love scones, and they are made with pumpkin and just they have everything you want. They have those spices. They have soft orange color.

- [Jessica] Are they glazed? I've made these.

- [Rossi] They're not glazed. They actually have diced ginger in them.

- [Jessica] Oh, I like that.

- [Rossi] So normally that would be a no for me, but it really works in these scones. Even if you're not a ginger person, I recommend trying it. So, yeah, they're kind of like a fall tradition and a good way to ground yourself in the season, especially before all the wildness of Thanksgiving baking takes off later this month.

- [Jessica] Yeah, I mean, and speaking of Jess-opinions that are polarizing, many seasons ago I talked about how you should never make pumpkin puree from scratch.

- [Rossi] Oh, yes. Whew!

- [Jessica] But here we are in the post-Halloween days. And so if you disagree with me, which a lot of people did...

- [Rossi] Yeah. Listen, do it.

- [Jessica] make that puree. And then make these scones. Live your life.

- [Rossi] It's a good use for it. Yeah. And it doesn't require too much puree too, so you can use some leftover. You can make a big batch. You do a lot of stuff with it.

- [Jessica] You know, my dog really likes pumpkin puree.

- [Rossi] Aww.

- [Jessica] Yeah.

- [Rossi] Wow. So seasonal.

- [Jessica] I usually am a sprint to the finish kind of person just to extend the sports metaphor is here, but I'm trying to get a little bit of ahead of Thanksgiving. So I'm going to make our recipe for apple pie, and I'm going to freeze it.

- [Rossi] Smart. Smart.

- [Jessica] This was a discovery after starting at King Arthur, that you can assemble an entire pie. So, this is a double-crust apple pie, and it has cinnamon, ginger, boiled cider. You should get some boiled cider for this, because I do think that adds something nice to the filling. You assemble the whole thing, you freeze it for 30 minutes or so, and then I overwrap it with plastic and pop it back in the freezer. And then there's just waiting for you.

- [Rossi] And you take straight from the freezer to the oven.

- [Jessica] I do. I take it straight from the freezer, unwrap the plastic, and you just add a little bit of time to it. Alternately, you can also take it out of the freezer and thaw it overnight in the refrigerator and then bake it the next day. But let's be real.

- [Rossi] Yeah. No one as time for that.

- [Jessica] Especially when the fridge before Thanksgiving is just crammed. Like, I'm not going to have... So I'm just going to make it more...

- [Rossi] And you could bake it the day before.

- [Jessica] You should bake it the day before.

- [Rossi] Yeah, let it sit on the counter and then have it ready to go for Thanksgiving.

- [Jessica] And really, it does not suffer at all. In fact, it may even improve. But also you feel like it's an improvement because you're not crying.

- [Rossi] Losing your mind. Yeah, yeah. No, this is good. So, the takeaway is to make your apple pies now.

- [Jessica] Yeah, you might as well. I mean, there's some things you can't make ahead for Thanksgiving, so you might as well take the off-ramps when you can. And maybe make two, because then you have one for, I don't know.

- [Rossi] Oh, smart. A little practice apple pie, like a chef's treat apple pie.

- [Jessica] Yeah, exactly. And then you have some pie for when you're watching football after the feast. Anyway, so that's what I'm going to do. As ever, thank our listeners for tuning in and joining us here at "Things Bakers Know," for welcoming my new co-host, Rossi Anastopoulo.

- [Rossi] Get used to it. David's not coming back. No, he would fire me. Remember to like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

- And leave us a review while you're there. Also, again, if you have a baking tradition, a baking and sports tradition, I would love to hear about it. So, leave us a comment there or leave a comment on our Substack. You can find us there talking about some behind the scenes "Things Bakers Know" stuff.

- [Rossi] And in the meantime, don't forget.

- [Jessica] In the meantime...

- [Rossi] Follow the recipe.

- [Jessica] Follow the recipe.

- [David] Things Bakers Know is hosted and executive produced by me, David Tamarkin.

- [Jessica] And me, Jessica Battilana.

- [David] Rossi Anastopoulo is our senior producer, and Chad Chenail is our producer and editor. Adam Baffa is our associate editor.

- [Jessica] Devin Shepherd is our production coordinator. Engineering by Matt Boynton of Ultraviolet Audio. Original music by Megan and Marcus Bagala. Big, big, big thanks to Olympian Jessie Diggins for appearing on today's episode. Jessie, I look forward to our cross-country ski lesson. You can learn more about her and her work on Instagram: @jessiediggins.

- [David] "Things Bakers Know" is a King Arthur Baking Company podcast. Hey, Bakers, before you go, one last thing. You already know that King Arthur has a legendary baking school in Vermont and Washington State. Well, a few years ago, we launched a new way to take classes from our world-class educators. You can take these classes anytime, anywhere. It's called Baking School on Demand. And guess what? "Things Bakers Know" listeners get a discount. Use code POD25 for 25% off your first order. That's POD25 for 25% off. If you can believe that. It's the deal of the century, but you gotta hurry because it expires on January 1st, 2027. Pick up a class for yourself or one of your friends or your dog at kingarthurbaking.com.