Challah is for Everyone, featuring Laurel Kratochvila

Episode Transcript

- Hey, bakers! Before we get into the episode, I need to tell you something. You already know that King Arthur has a legendary baking school in Vermont and Washington State. Well, a few years ago, we launched a new way to take classes from our world-class educators. You can take these classes anytime, anywhere, it's called "Baking School: On-Demand." And guess what? "Things Bakers Know" listeners get a discount. Use code POD25 for 25% off your first order. That's P-O-D-2-5 for 25% off, if you can believe that. It's a deal of the century, but you gotta hurry 'cause it expires on January 1, 2027. Pick up a class for yourself or one of your friends or your dog at kingarthurbaking.com. Okay, now let's get Jessica in here and start the episode.

- What are you supposed to do?

- I'm familiar with this opinion that's formed as a question.

- Yeah.

- Are you really wearing that? Yeah. Exactly. Exactly like that.

- From King Arthur Baking Company, this is "Things Bakers Know." I'm David Tamarkin, Employee/Owner at King Arthur Baking.

- And I'm Jessica Battilana, also Employee/Owner at King Arthur Baking.

- You sure are. And I have a question for you, Jessica.

- Okay, shoot.

- What did you do on your Friday nights growing up?

- Oh, well, just why don't you just open the pain?

- I think you were popular.

- Dear diary... I like that you think that, but an average Friday night, I probably had a book. You know, I was probably reading a book by myself.

- Yeah, this is a little more sad than I thought.

- Or maybe we were watching, my dad was really into Nova, you know, and if my dad got to the remote control before us, it would be like, "Deep Space Nova." It wasn't a wild time, is what I'm saying.

- I'm getting that. So you were either reading a book by yourself or watching PBS with your family.

- Yeah.

- Okay.

- What about you?

- Well, I thought I had the more pathetic Friday nights growing up, but my Friday nights were sad. I mean, they were basically like this. They were ordering pizza, which is not the sad part. Watching a movie on TV with my family, not necessarily the sad part. Sitting around wondering why I was not somewhere else. Like why had no one ever... Why no one called me?

- Weren't invited out.

- Yeah, wasn't invited out. No, so that's the sad part. You and I should have known each other then.

- We should-

- We should have been talking on the phone. Yeah.

- It's too bad.

- But long distance charges. This was a whole different time.

- True.

- The pizza was good. The family time was great. And whatever it was, it was a ritual, right? It was something that I could look forward to, or at least depend on every Friday night. And you could even say that pizza in the movie was my family's way of celebrating Shabbat, which is the Jewish Sabbath that starts on sundown on Friday nights. But of course, there were many crucial pieces missing. The religion part of it was not there. You know, we weren't lighting the candles. And crucially, there was no challah. No challah.

- No challah.

- Challah.

- Challah. Now-

- There's no challah, which is the theme of today's episode.

- We got there, finally.

- Yes.

- So you grew up in a Jewish household.

- I grew up in an interfaith household. I was raised Jewish, yes.

- Okay. But you didn't have those regular traditions as part of your daily life?

- No.

- Or your weekly life?

- No, we didn't do the weekly ritual of Shabbat. And, you know, maybe we'll talk about this later in the episode. I think one of the reasons why is because challah is, you know, it takes time to bake, and it's hard to pull off for a working person. I experience this now whenever I want to celebrate Shabbat I'm always like trying to running from meetings do my full folding of the dough or to shape or, you know, check in on the proof it's tough to have a bread on the table, you know, at sundown in the fall, like we're in now, where sundown is like at what?

- 3:30, it feels like.

- Yeah, 3:30, yeah, exactly. So that's probably when, you know, my parents were working and-

- Yeah, it's interesting because I did not grow up really with any, you know, religion at all in our household. But the idea of the ritual of Shabbat appeals to me very much.

- Yeah.

- And I think it's still sort of, I feel like the pizza in movies, it sort of counts. You know, just like the idea of something that like sets the tone for the transition from like the working week to the weekend is a great thing. I mean, and challah, also a great thing.

- Yes, right. And if there's anyone out there who doesn't know what challah is, it's a bread. It's fluffy. It's an enriched bread. It's enriched with eggs, never enriched with butter, which we will get into a little bit later. It's got some oil in it. I like a little olive oil in my challah. And I also like a little honey in my challah. So those are the things that enrich it. But I would describe it as a fluffy bread that you should be able to pull apart and get very satisfying strands. And yes, to your point and to what we're talking about, it is a key part of the ritual of Shabbat. So that means that challah is a bread that for many people, there's an extra layer of meaning baked in. No pun intended. Let me see if I can take you through the ritual of Shabbat. Let's see how good my Jewish education was.

- Yeah, paint me a picture.

- There were three major parts of it. The candles, the wine, and the bread, aka the challah. Each one of those elements has its own prayer, and each is packed with a bunch of symbolism, especially the challah. So, if a challah has seeds on it, the seeds are said to represent the biblical manna that fell from heaven. If the challah is braided, it's meant to symbolize love because the braids often look like arms intertwined in an embrace. If it's a three-strand challah, which for the record is the only braid I can do, the strands are said to represent truth, peace and justice.

- All good things.

- All good things. And those symbols, you know, are lovely.

- Still relevant.

- And I gotta be honest with you, though, I had no idea any of that was the symbolism of challah until I researched it for this episode. Because for me, challah only really means one thing, it just means community to me. I've never, ever made a challah just for me. To me, challah is a bread that you only make when you have somebody at the table you want to break bread with and basically somebody you love that you want to share with. And it speaks to what you were talking about before, your love of ritual. But of course, challah is not just that.

- Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because I don't, you know, I was thinking about, as we got ready to record this episode, the first time that I ate challah. And there's some things that we talk about that I have, like, sort of touchstones in my own life that I can be like, "Ah, I remember this." I don't have that relationship with challah because, you know, not only did I not grow up in a Jewish household, but there were no Jewish households in, you know, the town where I grew up in. And so, it wasn't even like a secondhand tradition that I was exposed to. So, I had challah at some point, but it was, you know, very divorced from any sort of ritual or tradition. But I think, you know, it has certainly crossed over into the secular world.

- Yes, right.

- Now you see it, like, diners everywhere use it for their French toast, or they make sandwiches on it. There's, like, so many different things you can do. Like, any indication for, like, a soft, slightly sweet bread, like, your bread pudding, your Bostock, like, any of that is, like, challah makes such a great base for it. I also like the sweetness of it, like, with a savory filling, too. Which sometimes you see, like, sandwiches with, like, I don't know-

- For sure.

- Tuna salad, chicken salad on a challah.

- Yeah, I was thinking, like, a turkey melt. On a challah would be good.

- Turkey melt. Yeah, and then, you know, you also see bakers using it as the base of, like, tarts, both sweet and savory tarts. And also, lately, we've been seeing bakers using, like, a laminated challah or challah-like dough as a base for, I mean, they call them croissants. But it's sort of like somewhere, it's different than a traditional French croissant. So it pops up all over the place. So even if you don't have the traditional relationship to challah, like, you probably have some relationship with challah.

- Yeah, I think at this point, everybody has had challah. Maybe they don't even know it, but they probably have had it at some point. And I know that you, you know, we were talking about these croissants, and there's a baker in New York that we've talked about before on this podcast that you're very fond of.

- Yeah.

- Who messes around with challah.

- Yeah, I think Zöe Kanan at Elbow Bread in the Lower East Side is doing incredible things. I've bought her loaf of challah, and it's great, but what I really love is what she's doing with her challah honey buns, which you had-

- I did have one of those.

- Yes, I believe it made you... So, it was so good it made you angry, you said.

- Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it was like I was not staying anywhere near that bakery, and I made like a pilgrimage to go, and what's interesting about that honey bun is like, I mean, obviously you have this very like shreddable sweet dough, but then it's almost like lacquered in the honey glaze. Like it forms like a magic shell around the pastry and then flaky salt on top. And, you know, I took a bite and I was like, "How? Why?" Like, especially as a baker, you know, when you get your socks blown off by something like that. It really is like, "Well, I know how to make things. Like, I bake things, but why?" You're just like, "Oh, I can't do this."

- You can't do that at home.

- She's sort of a magician.

- Yeah. I think it's a great example of the versatility of challah. Because I think one reason why that pastry and so many of the things you talked about, like French toast, work with challah is because challah is enriched. It does have a richness to it, but it's not as rich as brioche. It's a good middle ground, so it can do these things that can lean decadent, but it can also make those pastries or those dishes not quite go over the edge, right? So I think it's a very versatile dough.

- We went down a bit of a rabbit hole when we were working. So, one of my more recent and more in-depth exposures to challah was that we were working on "The Big Book of Bread." And we were like, "Of course we have to have a challah." And boy, did that really ignite some conversation.

- Everybody, it's like so many things we talk about. We talked about chocolate cake earlier in this season. I think challah is, not quite to the extent of chocolate cake, but it's still, it's a very personal thing. And what I think it comes down to is that some people like a really, I would say more bread-like challah, you know? And some people like a cakeier challah, where, you know, the crumb is gonna be super tight, it's gonna be a little bit sweeter. To me, that was what the woman working on that recipe, your co-author Mel, was grappling with. Is it, was she going to do like a super light and bready shreddable challah? Or was she going to do something?

- And what explains like formula-wise, what makes the challah more shreddable versus having a tighter crumb? Like what is the-

- I think it's a number of things. I think, first of all, cakeier challah is going to be a little sweeter, so you're going to have more sugar there. But I really think it's about the methods, about the gluten development.

- Yeah.

- And I love the challah... You know, spoiler alert, we went with shreddable and bready, you know, in the book. And it is now my go-to challah recipe. I think it's the best challah recipe on the planet. I love that challah. Like, you gotta mix that thing in the mixer-

- So long.

- I would not recommend to anybody do it by hand.

- No.

- Of course, millions of people do it by hand all the time. But for me, I'm gonna use a mixer and I mix that dough. I'm not exaggerating, 15, sometimes upwards of 20 minutes.

- Yeah, and I think we say in that recipe, like, you should set a timer because your sense of how long something is mixing, you know, like, when you're using a mechanical mixer, I think it's sometimes a little bit skewed, you're like, it's been like 10 minutes, it's been like three minutes. You know, you're just like tired of hearing the mixer. Your mixer's like jumping off the counter and overheating.

- Absolutely. Right, right, yup.

- Am I doing this right? But yes, I think you need that long mechanical mix to build up that gluten, which gives you that fluffy... I also will confess that we have a three-strand challah in the book, and we also give instructions for, you know, different ways to, you know, to braid like a four-strand round challah, an eight-strand challah. And honestly, I still feel like my brain was broken by this. Like I had Mel and Martin, co-authors in the book, like show me. I mean, I work with my hands, like I knit, I do things, and I just could not... I was just struggling so hard getting those patterns down. And I remember Mel just being like, "You know, this arm is hugging this arm. Now the octopus is doing this."

- Right, one over eight, three over six.

- It's so hard. And then trying to translate that to the home baker, we have like, there's illustrations in the book. There's QR codes. And then I insisted that the QR code videos were filmed like over the shoulder of the baker.

- Absolutely.

- Because if you're looking in the reverse, like, God help you. Like, there is no way.

- Exactly, right, yeah.

- So the few times that I make challah, and I will say, like, I've had some beginner's luck. Well, yeah, beginner's luck in the sense that I don't make challah that often, but I've, like, used all the, you know, training and advice that is here from the other bakers. And I've made some nice-looking challah, but I just, I have to stick to the three-strand.

- Yeah, I say to the three-strand as well. And because there are so many other things that go into making a good challah. I mean, the braiding is just one of them. I mean, it really goes down to, you know, it starts with the mix like we're talking about-

- Yeah.

- But it goes to the shaping. The preshaping is so important. The shaping of the strands after the preshape is super important. You know, are you getting a good taper on those strands? Are they all equal length? Then the shaping, and then, of course, there's the proof, which we're constantly talking about proof. But I think with shaped breads and enriched breads, it's so important. The shape's not going to come out if you underproof or overproof this bread. You've got to get that right. And I would encourage people to go for overproofing. Like, just push the proof on this bread.

- Yeah, I think that's true. I think that's true. I'm curious, though, I know that you, you know, as always, we have a guest for this week's episode. And I'm curious to know, like, if you've gotten into some of these conversations about, like, what makes a good challah.

- Yeah, you know, the guest today, I talked to Laurel Kratochvila, who is just a really fascinating baker. Like she's an American, but she's now based in Berlin. She has a bagel shop in Berlin because there was a dearth of bagels, good bagels in Berlin. She's written a cookbook called "New European Baking" and her most recent book called "Dobre Dobre"

- I love that book.

- It's so good. It's all about Polish baking.

- Yeah.

- Which is, you know, just by nature of the history of Poland, a lot about Jewish baking. Baking was a Jewish profession in Poland, so those two things are connected. And there's a lot of challah, but there's also a lot of chalka, which I'd never heard of before, Dobre Dobre, which is a variation, basically, of challah, and which came first, chicken or the egg, I don't know. We get into that a little bit with Laurel. And then, yeah, I do ask her what her ideal challah is, and she has a term, which I won't spoil right now, but I call the perfect challah "shreddable," 'cause it's like cotton candy.

- Yeah.

- She has an even better way of putting it.

- Oh, good, okay.

- So, yeah, it's a great conversation. She's a really fascinating baker. Well, Laurel Kratochvila, it is a pleasure to have you on "Things Bakers Know." I got to tell you, "Dobre Dobre" is one of my favorite books that's come out in the past few years. I'm obsessed with it. It's not only beautiful, but there are so many fascinating stories in there about baking and the evolution of different breads. And one thing that was really called out to me in the book was all the tidbits and little histories of challah in here. I would love for you to just start by talking about your journey as a baker and how you ended up, you know, being a baker in Europe.

- You know, I'm from the Boston area, I studied there. I got a physics degree. I realized I absolutely did not want to work in that field. So I sort of ran away. I was bartending in Prague. I met my husband and we wound up moving up to Berlin and we run bookstores, you know, two small independent bookstores and I wanted to add a cafe to the bookstore. Very, very tiny, made a little kitchen in a storage closet. And I started making bagels. Like bagels, rugelach, challah, like stuff that I missed from home, from my upbringing and that I couldn't find in Berlin and it really, really caught on. But if you want to do something like this in Europe, you need qualifications, you need papers. Did my culinary school in France. I went to Le Cordon Bleu. I went to trade school in Reims, the capital of Champagne, and developed a network. Got very, very into bread baking. And yeah, so it was cart before the horse and I've been running the bakery ever since. And at the same time, I travel, I stage, I eat a lot of carbs.

- Right. I'm familiar with eating a lot of carbs. It's interesting to me, and I think relevant to our conversation, that you started baking bagels, challah, rugelach. These are traditional Jewish, you know, recipes, right? And did you say that those are the things that you were missing?

- Yeah, you can't get it over here. And I, well, that's changing. That has changed. I think I've been part of that change. When we talk about challah, like, every European country has a braided egg bread. And challah is really just another one of those braided egg breads that has, I would say, like more significance in the Jewish community than say, a zopf, that would be the German braided bread, has in Germany. I will say that in modern Poland, they have what's called chalka, and that's C-H-A-L with a cross K-A, and this is a kind of challah, but it's made with dairy. So there are historians that will say that challah just kind of comes out of any of the other braided egg breads of the region, and it's simply made without dairy to make it pareve to have, so no, so you can eat it with meat. Difference is there because of Jewish dietary laws and the prohibition against mixing milchig and fleishig, so dairy foods with meat foods. And so, yeah, if a bakery wanted to keep kosher and be non-dairy or it's just how it evolved. So you could you could eat challah with anything. There's no dairy in there.

- Yeah.

- Because you never have spontaneous generation. Baking doesn't happen in a vacuum. And especially when you're talking about Jewish food, you're always going to be talking about migration. You're going to be talking about giving and taking from the culture where Jews were living, and I believe that is like a pretty logical explanation for how challah came to be. Most people that you speak to in Poland will say that the chalka that they eat there is more influenced by the Jewish challah than the other way around. But in Poland, there was so much overlap. You almost couldn't differentiate and pull things apart. I think it's a pretty impossible question to answer.

- Okay, I see what you're saying. There's a chicken or the egg question here. Did challah come first and versions with dairy come after it or the other way around? I see the tension. But I want to talk a lot about chalka in this conversation, because that is one of the things that was so fascinating to me in your book. I had never heard of chalka before, before reading your book. And now I'm a little obsessed with it. And can you talk a little bit about how you discovered chalka? It's a very charming story in this book.

- Well, so when I met my husband, when I was a young lady of 24, because I should say I was living in the Czech Republic, and I complained to him, he's Czech, and I said, you know, "I hate the pickles here." He says, "What's wrong with the pickles here?" And I said, "They're sweet, there's sugar in the pickles, and I just want like a good sour dill pickle," like, you know? And he said, "Come on, baby, I'll take you up to Poland." And I said, "We can do this, we can just go to Poland?" And it was the middle of the winter, and so, we sort of drove over these mountains into Poland. There's a lot of like fruit and vegetable stands along the road, and they'll always sell sauerkraut or pickles and we achieved our goal, we got the pickles. And then there was a bakery, like across the street. And oh, let's go in the bakery, let's get something. Go into the bakery, and that was my first encounter with Polish breads, milk breads, sweets, the rugelach. Like, I was so excited because there was like a shelf of challah. I was sure of it. I'm like, this is, oh my God, because actually the braided egg bread in the Czech Republic is quite different. But this, I knew what this was. This is challah, I have to get it. I'm so excited, I got it. It tasted the same. In the store, they're like, "No, no, no, it's not. It's chalka, chalka." And that was my first contact with Polish baking. And I married the guy, I stayed in Europe. And I kept going back to Poland because, in a way, the closest thing that you can find to the Jewish-American bakery in Europe is the Polish bakery. And that was such a touchstone for me and something that I wanted to learn about and learn from bakers there. And yeah, that's how it started.

- But one thing that I struggle with as somebody who loves challah, and I like celebrating Shabbat, I don't do it regularly. And one reason why I don't do it regularly is because I work all day on Friday and I kind of struggle to fit the challah into the day. And I'm like, how am I supposed to get challah on the table by sundown, especially if it's winter? Like if I'm working all day, like, do you have any advice for anybody who wants to create a regular challah practice, how they might fit that into their schedule?

- I always say make the dough the day before, chill it in the fridge, and then all you have to do is take it out, divide it, and shape it and let it rise and bake it off. But you do need a few hours for that because the best way to ruin a nice loaf of challah is to rush it and not let it proof enough. But there are some cheats. You can really warm up a room so it rises fast. I find that the recipe I developed for Dobre Dobre is a good one because it moves quite quickly because it uses this preferment called a poolish. And that helps make it not just like very fluffy and extensible. It also kind of rushes the dough along a little bit. But I would always say find a recipe that you can chill in the fridge overnight and then it's fewer steps, it's less mess. And yeah, if you want to get into a challah-making practice.

- Let's talk about the poolish a little bit. In our bread book that we released a couple of years ago, also has a preferment. I don't know if it's technically a poolish, but there's a preferment. I think that's unusual. I mean, I think most of the challah recipes I've made for most of my life, have been pretty straight process and didn't involve a preferment. Is the preferment traditional to challah, as, you know, as far as you found?

- So the preferment is actually traditional to chalka. I know that. I couldn't say about challah. But the reason that the challah recipe in this book uses a poolish is because poolish is a very Polish baking technique for enriched doughs. And the word poolish is supposed to actually come from Polish, not the Polish language, like the word Polish. And it dates back to the mid-19th century when yeast, commercial yeast first came around, and it was very expensive, but the way to make a little bit of yeast go a long way is to feed it. And that's essentially what you're doing with a poolish. You have a liquid, whether it's milk or water and flour, and then like a little bit of yeast and it over the course of a few hours just bubbles and becomes very strong. And so, it was a technique for making a little bit of commercial yeast go a very long way back when it was expensive. But it has this additional impact of keeping your dough softer, moister, you know, helping your challah form those beautiful lumps that everybody likes. In writing this book, because like I knew about this technique, you use it when you make like a baguette tradition in France, there's all kinds of uses for it. But now that I've been using a poolish for my enriched doughs, I can't go back. It is an absolute game changer. I love it. This is a hill I will die on. Thank you, Polish baking. It's amazing. Everything is just more wonderful.

- And you mentioned something else about the quickest way to ruin a challah is to rush it. And I think that is such great advice. And I can attest. That's true, I've rushed many challahs and they have not turned out. What are we really talking about when you say that, that they've given it enough time? How can people know that they haven't rushed it?

- For me, like one of the best ways of knowing that a challah is ready. And I say this even though, you know, in my book, I will give you timings, you know, let it rise for this long. Those are suggestions because everybody is in a different climate. You know, the ambient temperature, this guy affects how fast or slow your dough rises, right? So if it's hot out, your dough's going to go faster, cold, slower. I like to jiggle the pan that it's on. If it's like nice and airy, it will give a nice jiggle. If it's still like quite tight, it won't. The other thing is to press it with your finger, just a very quick indentation and you can watch the dough spring back. And I like it to just spring back very, very slowly. You know, if it goes really fast, it needs more time. If it just stays collapsed, you've probably overdone it. And the reason we do all this is if you don't hit that sweet spot, you're going to have probably a gummy, not nicely aerated loaf. And I have a friend who always calls the inside of a challah, it's like chicken. You know, if you were like pulled chicken apart, it's almost like these strands. And that's what we're going for.

- I love that, calling it chicken. I often talk about it like cotton candy or something, but yes, that's shreddable. It actually does look more like chicken. You're right, I will never look at challah the same after this. Chicken challah is like, yeah, definitely a thing. So thanks, Laurel.

- Thank you, David.

- This episode is sponsored by Brød & Taylor. Bread making made simple. Sourdough or brioche, first loaf or 50th, great bread is available to every baker. Your best bread is within reach. Brød & Taylor builds tools that help you get there. See what's possible at brodandtaylor.com. This episode is brought to you by Red Star. Red Star has a yeast for every kind of baker. For over a century, Red Star yeast has been right there helping bakers do their thing. Whether you're a seasoned pro or a newcomer making something simple, Red Star has you covered. Visit redstaryeast.com to find a retail store near you. The full line of products are also available for purchase online at redstaryeast.com. It's time for our next segment, "Ask the Bakers." For Ask the Bakers, we want to hear from you. If you have a baking question for us, head to kingarthurbaking.com/podcast to record a voice message, and we may end up using it on the show. That's kingarthurbaking.com/podcast.

- And of course, if you have a baking question that can't wait, you can always reach out to our Baker's Hotline via phone, email, or online chat. Just go to kingarthurbaking.com/bakers-hotline. That's kingarthurbaking.com/bakers-hotline or call us 855-371-2253, that's 2253 as in BAKE.

- I'm really struggling to keep myself from singing Aretha Franklin's "Call Me" right now.

- It's been a while since we broke out in song on this podcast.

- Yeah, and the people are clamoring for it. You see it in the comments all the time, "More singing." "More song."

- More singing. Yeah, I think that's maybe for season five.

- That's right. Keep on waiting, people. Let's answer some questions.

- I had a question about instant yeast and active dry yeast. And truly, what is the difference?

- Truly, what is the difference? Good question. We get this question frequently, actually, on the Hotline. Well, first and foremost, I should say that either active dry yeast or instant yeast are fine things to use in recipes that call for yeast. In our test kitchen, we use instant yeast, and I'll talk more about why we do that in a minute. But just to give you a brief overview, so instant yeast is manufactured to a smaller granule size than active dry, so it has more surface area that's exposed to liquid when it's added to, you know, a recipe, so it dissolves more quickly. And it starts working faster than active dry. And you can mix it right in without, you know, proofing. So old recipes, and I feel like we've talked about this before on the podcast, had you sort of proof your yeast, you know, where you'd put it in a bowl, you'd add warm water, you'd wait five minutes to make sure that you know, it's bubbling. You don't really, you definitely don't need to do it with instant yeast, and you don't really need to do it with active dry yeast, unless, like, the only exception I would be, like, if you're at a rental house, and you find a packet of yeast in the cupboard, and you're gonna bake something, and you're like, is it still alive? Then I might proof it, but otherwise, you can just add the yeast with your dry ingredients. Proofing is not a necessary step. You can proof yeast, I never do. I don't think it's necessary. I use instant yeast, our test kitchen uses instant yeast.

- She's confident. You're confident.

- I'm very confident. I store it in my freezer. And I get the big bags of... Most common one that we use here in the test kitchen, only one we use in the test kitchen, is the SAF brand of instant yeast. I will say that there's also an SAF Gold. And I do like anything that's got gold in the name.

- Me too.

- And that yeast is specially formulated for enriched breads, for breads that have a lot of sugar in it, because sugar can slow down yeast production and make your bread, like, move, you know, more sluggishly. So the SAF Gold is better suited to breads that have more sugar in it. So I do keep that on hand, too, for, like, you know, yeasted Danish doughs. It would be appropriate to use for challah, for brioche. Instant yeast will work fine. Active yeast will work fine, but if you do a lot of baking of, like, enriched yeasted, you might see an improvement if you switch to the gold yeast. But I do-

- I use Gold for everything.

- Do you?

- Yeah, I just buy the gold.

- You're just a gold kind of guy.

- I'm just gold. I'm a gold guy.

- Solid gold.

- Silver's never been for me. I like to be number one.

- I do feel like if we can get people off of... I know it doesn't take long to proof yeast, but I'm just like, not necessary. Eliminate unnecessary steps.

- Yeah.

- Save five minutes.

- Take that time back.

- Yeah.

- Get some new time. Take a bath, a five minute bath-

- Five minute bath-

- A schvitz.

- Yeah, so that's the difference between the two and, you know, just some tactical tips about how to use, how to store.

- Yeah.

- We answered this question. We did it.

- We did.

- We finally did it.

- We did.

- Hi, this is Lisa from San Jose, and I have a problem getting the strands to braid my challah smooth. I'm not sure if it's a problem with overproofing or if there's some tricks to get those strands very smooth so that my final bake will look good. Thanks so much.

- So the song that is in my head now-

- Oh, I know. Do you know the way?

- Yeah, okay, right. 'Cause I was thinking, "Oh, is that, 'Do you know the way to Santa Fe?'" No, it's to San Jose.

- Yeah.

- Right, Lisa from San Jose.

- Well, I think first we should describe this problem in more detail, 'cause I think this is not something you see with commodity challah. And by commodity, I mean, like grocery store challah.

- Okay.

- Because I feel like those are pretty smooth. But it is a problem that I see with some frequency with homemade challah. That they, like the braided loaf, looks warty.

- Like bumpy.

- Bumpy and warty. Yeah, it's not-

- Warty is a good word for it. It's kind of a disgusting word for it, but yes, it gets the point across.

- Yeah, it gets the point across. And so, how do you fix it?

- Right.

- And we do have tricks for this.

- And I'll be honest with you, it's a step that old me used to skip, didn't really think it was necessary, and now I'm converted. The step that is crucial here to get nice, smooth strands is a preshape. And so we often talk about preshaping when we talk about bread, and the reason for a preshape is because it gives, it gives it like a trial run in the shape, you know? It puts it in the shape. It doesn't have to exactly, you know, fit the shape. It doesn't have to go into shape right away. It can kind of get used to it. It's kind of like a warmup for your dough. So in this case, when you're shaping, you're gonna preshape into a tube. So let's say you're making a three-strand challah, you're going to divide your dough into three equal parts. I would weigh those because you do want to get this right. And you will shape each of those pieces of dough into a tight tube, probably about maybe six or seven inches in length. So not the full length of your strand by any means. But that's just going to get it into that cylindrical shape and make it so much easier after a 15-minute rest to roll out into a beautiful, smooth strand.

- Yeah.

- If you try to go right into divide and full-length strand, A, you're going to get some lumps, some warts, as you disgustingly said. B, it's going to be tougher. It's going to be a workout for you.

- To stretch it.

- To stretch it.

- Because that gluten just wants to snap on back.

- It wants to snap back. And we're talking about some pretty long strands here.

- Yeah, like 18 inches, something like that.

- Yes. That's hard, your dough doesn't want to do that. So it's so much easier to do once you do the preshape. I will say, even after you preshape, your dough might still, you know, snap back a little bit, but it's not a big deal. As you go to shape the strands, if one of them, you know, starts to resist, you just set that one aside and you go to the next one. And by the time you come back to it, it'll be relaxed and ready to go.

- I do also think that, you know, we already talked about the long mix, but I think that's part of it, too. Like, if you haven't mixed your dough long enough, I think it's more prone to the wartiness. Like, it's not, like-

- Well, that's certainly true, like if-

- homogeneous. And, like, the dough should already, like, look and feel really good before you divide it. So if it's looking lumpy at that point, it's not likely to get less lumpy.

- If the problem is the mix, and you didn't fix it in the mix, and it's kind of too late, then I would go ahead and still make your bread and still eat it, just don't show it to anyone, you know?

- Just hide it under a towel.

- Maybe put a nice frosting over it.

- Yeah, I think those are good tips. And then once you roll out your strands, do you typically just go right into the braiding?

- Yeah, you typically go right into the braiding. And this is another thing that I learned from your book, Jessica, is to braid from the center out.

- Oh, yeah.

- And this is a mind-bending and game-changing tip.

- Yeah.

- Because one of the pitfalls of braiding any bread, not just challah, any time you do a three-strand braid, is if you start from the top and you're not a professional, you're very likely to get a top-heavy bread, meaning that you're going to get, you'll make a braid that sort of is in a V-shape.

- Yeah.

- And it's going to be, you know, nice and-

- I know exactly what you're talking about, yeah.

- And kind of wide at the top, and then it's going to get all misshapen and weird at the bottom.

- Yeah.

- That sort of still happens when you start from the center, but luckily, the center is where you get the most beautiful high braid. And then, as you, you know, braid down, it tapers off, which is appropriate, because then you flip the bread over, and you start from the other side. It's nice and thick, and, you know, and the biggest part of the bread is in the middle, and it tapers again. And so you have this beautiful, slightly diamond-ish, but you know, like challah.

- And I think that's, yeah, so just to be clear about it, you're starting from the center-

- Yes.

- with strands, three strands facing you, you braid towards yourself.

- Yes.

- Then you go back to the center of the bread, and you flip the whole thing over. So the unbraided strands that were at the top are now facing you.

- Yes. And the bread is upside down.

- Right.

- And then you finish the braid that way.

- Right. And since we're just on the topic of how to make, since we're going through the whole process, we might as well just, you know, reiterate one more time, that now, now that you've had your challah, now that it's braided, you've done the preshape, the shape, all you have to do now is proof it and bake it. Like we said at the beginning, push the proof. Because if you don't push the proof, well, actually, I think we're about to get into this.

- Yeah, we're gonna get into it. Because we have a question about this. Let's hear our question, but then let's keep talking about it.

- Hi, Jessica and David. How do I avoid tearing or stretching in the braids on my challah when it bakes? Thanks.

- I knew we were going to get this question. I mean, spoiler, we've previewed the question, so I knew this question was in here. But I knew we were going to get this question about challah because it is the thing, like, on Reddit, people are asking, like, why is my... So what they're talking about is, like, when you have a baked loaf of challah, and, you know, challah is typically egg-washed all over, so it has that beautiful sort of mahogany finish. But sometimes you can see, even with some bakery challah, you know, right along the sort of seams of the braid, it's like the bread is sort of pulled apart a little bit. There's like little tears and where the bread has torn as it's baked, the spots that were once beautifully glazed with egg wash are now like unsightly blemishes, like they're like white, kind of, yeah, tears.

- Yeah. And you're saying sometimes they're little tears, sometimes they're really big tears, you know?

- Sometimes they're big tears.

- Sometimes at every sort of joint in the braid, it's popped open and torn.

- Yeah, and it's ugly.

- It's like a wound.

- Like a wound.

- Yeah.

- The big way to avoid that is the proof. And we learned this, I won't say the hard way, but we learned this through the development of the recipe for "The Big Book of Bread." I think at first, we were like, "Let it rise for 60 minutes or something." But then often, we would go and look at it 60 minutes and be like, "Could it go another 10 minutes?" And then we'd come back and be like, "Could it go another 10 minutes?" And, you know, we just kept seeing, like, actually, this bread can go longer than we think before it's overproofed. So, we were, like, getting to the point where we're like, we're looking for it. It should be, like, very marshmallow-y.

- Yeah, yeah.

- And it takes sometimes a long time, particularly if it's cold in your house. Like, it can take hours, multiple hours.

- That's why it can be tough to time your challah for sundown on Friday night.

- Yeah, yeah, truly.

- You really gotta get it started in the morning because, especially like you said, if you're doing it, in the fall, in the East Coast, it can take two hours, sometimes more, to produce that bread.

- And if you put an underproofed loaf of challah in the oven, I mean, it'll still eat, right? It'll still bake, you'll still be able to eat it. But what happens is there's still a lot of activity in that, like the yeast is still raring to go. And so you put it in the oven, and there's that sudden flurry of activity, which causes those tears almost immediately. So you want to get it to the point that the yeast is done most of the work it's going to do, and there's not going to be a ton of oven spring once you put it in the oven. Also, I used to think tighter braiding was the thing to do. But then I learned that's not so great either.

- You want to leave a little bit of room for the braids-

- To expand.

- The strands to, you know, grow, which they will, and improving and expanding. If it's too tight, what happens?

- Tearing, same problem. So I think those are the two things. Like, you don't have to braid super tight. Like, it's not like you're punishing your children by braiding their hair too tight . You want to, like, keep a sort of, like, I mean, not a slack bread, but a little bit. You don't have to really wrench on it. And then, yeah, just keep proofing. And I think that, again, is something that comes with experience. Like, you will start to get to know, like, oh, how long does it take? And what happens when I bake it like this versus going a little longer? And that's where it can be useful to record what you've done from time to time. Because even if a recipe says, you know, we try and offer caveats in here, like, it might take 60 minutes, it might take 90 minutes, it might take longer. And again, it gets back to what we're always talking about in this podcast of, like, using your senses to sort of assess. Like, don't look at the clock. The clock is a guide, but, like, look at what's actually in front of you. And I think that will help. And then, you know, I also, this is not part of the question, but this is historically what we do is answer more or less than people are asking. I think, you know, getting that egg wash all over, too. Like, I get all the way around the bottom, the sides. Just because I think it gives it, like, the nicest shine. You get that dark color all over. Like, it makes it look really appetizing. Like, a pale challah. Like, a pale any baked good is not appealing.

- Yeah.

- So there.

- So there you go.

- Problem solved.

- Yup. Perfect challah from now on. So I think this is now the time when we get to go into the best segment of the episode, which is "Jess Opinions." Every episode we like to check in with Jessica to see what wildly surprising and full-throated ideas are in her head, a segment we lovingly call "Jess Opinions." Jessica, can't wait to hear your Jess Opinion on challah.

- You know, you may have sort of helped give this dimension, because I was thinking about my opinion as actually sort of a question. And my question is, like, what are you supposed to do-

- This is kind of like, "I'm familiar with this opinion that's formed as a question."

- Yeah.

- Are you really wearing that?

- Yeah. Exactly, exactly like that. What are you supposed to do with all those tiny pieces of challah, at the end of a braided three-strand loaf. Like, you can't make a sandwich out of that. But then I was thinking something you said earlier. So you were describing how, you know, traditionally it's a tear-and-share loaf. So nobody's slicing, nobody's stuck with those dinky slices. But, you know, if I'm buying a loaf of challah for French toast, for sandwiches, like, three-quarters of the loaf is basically unusable. And I think I told you at one point how I was making my children peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, but I had to make them like 10 of them using all those like tiny little slices.

- They're mini, they're silver dollar sandwiches.

- Yeah, silver dollar sandwiches. So my... Is this an opinion? My opinion is really like, if you want to use challah for sandwiches, you should bake a round challah.

- So your opinion on the question, I think, is...

- Tiny slice of challah, what's up with that?

- Yeah, that's good. Or I was going to say, like, "You're going to make a sandwich with that?"

- Yeah, exactly.

- With the end of the loaves.

- And you can't.

- No, you can't. I mean, here's the workaround for that is, you know, slicing on the bias on the diagonal so that you get some bigger slices. But you're right, I mean, there are plenty of uses for sliced challah, which we talked about at the beginning of the show. I think you're just out of luck, Jessica. You just gotta deal with it.

- Yeah, I think it's just a...

- Or for you, maybe you make challah in a pan.

- I think that's actually-

- Yeah, make a sandwich loaf out of it.

- We talked about that a bit when we were writing "The Big Book of Bread", because Martin was basically like, challah is a foundational dough. You know, and it's a foundational dough that you can use for all sorts of things. And so, like, you can use a challah dough for, like, a hamburger roll or a hot dog roll or, you know, there's so many other things like we, and I think, I blame Instagram. I blame social media for this, but I think there's been so many, like, intricate, like, there's all these bakers that are doing this really intricate braided challahs, and so people have this idea of, like, that being the white whale. Kind of like the holey sourdough, like, being the one true sourdough. And then you're like, "But actually, you can just take this delicious dough and use it, you know, shape it in a lot of different ways."

- Totally.

- And I think making a pan loaf of challah, while, like, not traditional and not as symbolic and, like, romantic as the braid, is perhaps a better practical solution for my lifestyle.

- Yeah, but you could also, you could keep the braid too. You know, we were talking about Zoë Kanan's laminated challah earlier in the show, and we have a YouTube video where Martin talks to Zoë and sort of does his version of her recipe. And he puts it in a Pullman pan.

- Yeah, that's a great recipe.

- And it has a beautiful braid on top.

- Yeah.

- So there are ways, and I'm not saying you have to, you could shape it like an Nanterre and do three kind of hills.

- Yeah, yeah.

- That's what I'm gonna call it. I don't care if you create it or not, but I'm just saying there are ways to, there are many, many ways to shape a challah, and I think a pan loaf is a great way to make it.

- So that's my opinion-ish this week.

- All right, I'll accept it.

- But, I will say, 'cause now we're gonna talk about what we're baking this week, and I do, when I'm stuck with baby challah slices, I feel like you have your center cut challah. And then you have the trim, you know? And so the trim, I will just put in the freezer. And then when I have enough trim of challah or of brioche or other, like even like white sandwich bread, then I make my recipe for bread pudding, which is a vanilla bread pudding. It was in my cookbook, and the recipe is also on the King Arthur site, so we'll link it in the show notes, but it's a vanilla bread pudding that has bits of dark chocolate and cognac-soaked prunes.

- Mm-hmm.

- Ugh, so good.

- Here we are again with chocolate and fruit.

- I know.

- You can't, you can't get away.

- I can't quit it. I can't quit it. And, I mean, I'm not single-hand... I think there's a whole marketing team working to, like, resurrect the reputation of prunes. But I am part of that team. It's just like, and having the boozy soaked fruit in there. I mean, you can make it.

- You're compromised. You're being bought off by a big prune.

- By a big prune. Excuse me, big dried plum. So that is one of the most delicious things to eat, I think, bread pudding and challah offcuts are the perfect bread for that.

- I'm still stuck on you having a freezer full of these offcuts of bread. Oh, I've got a freezer full of all sorts of weird stuff.

- This is just sort of like your burrito end that you take home and chop up the next day to put in eggs. I mean, the frugality. There's a limit, Jessica. There's a limit.

- When you have a chest freezer and you have Yankee thrift, there's no end to what you'll say. What are you baking this week?

- Well, I chose a recipe with you in mind. I'm craving waffles. You know, there's a whole debate in my house pancakes versus waffles, I love pancakes, but my husband's like, oh well, pancake, I mean, they're no waffles. I'm like okay, I get it-

- Oh, interesting-

- that's sort of like your Jess Opinion this week he says, "You're not going to make waffles?" He doesn't say it like that because he's not an 80-year-old Jewish man, but, you know, it's sort of like an opinion expressed as a question. So, I'm gonna make waffles. I do love waffles. And I found a recipe on the site called "Old-Fashioned Maine Sourdough Waffles." And I need to know from you, what the heck is this?

- I've never made them.

- But what are Maine Sourdough Waffles? Well, you must know.

- From my imagination.

- I guess I'm gonna figure it out myself.

- Yeah, figure it out.

- Anyway, so that's what I'm baking this week. I want to note something about these Maine waffles. They are like half and half AP flour and Golden Wheat.

- Oh, nice. For the health.

- Health is wealth, you know?

- Yes.

- And also, honestly, wealth is health. Think about that, okay? Not to get political, but, you know?

- Well, enjoy your waffles.

- Thank you.

- I hope you have them with real maple syrup. Thank you to all the listeners for tuning in and joining us here on "Things Bakers Know." We'll be back next week with a new episode. So, you know, count on that. Bookmark it. Save in your calendar. Subscribe now so you never miss an episode.

- Right, right. And remember to press that Like button and that Subscribe button on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube, wherever you listen to us or watch us or both.

- And leave us a review while you're there, or share this episode with a challah-loving friend.

- Yes, and people, don't forget that we're also on Substack.

- Oh, yeah.

- Yeah, we're sending out missives on Substack. And we're getting in the chats on Substack. There's a robust conversation happening.

- Yeah, you shouldn't miss it.

- Join us, you know?

- It's fun. We're having fun over there.

- Someone in there is going to make a comment about my wealth is health. Let's talk about it.

- Yeah, it's like, this is like MTV Unplugged for things... Wow, I'm dating myself.

- Nobody knows what that means.

- MTV Unplugged.

- For kids, MTV Unplugged was a program that was very influential to Jessica and I.

- Yeah, so-

- This goes out to the commenter who thought we were old.

- Yeah, exactly. So our Substack is basically MTV Unplugged for Things Bakers Know. So, I'm really shoehorning us into a specific demographic.

- TBK Unplugged. Anyway, we'll see you next week. Until then, don't forget, people, follow the recipe. "Things Bakers Know" is hosted and executive produced by me, David Tamarkin.

- And me, Jessica Battilana.

- Rossi Anastopoulo is our Senior Producer, and Chad Chenail is our Producer and Editor. Adam Baffa is our Associate Editor.

- Devin Shepard is our production coordinator. Engineering by Matt Boynton of Ultraviolet Audio. Original music by Megan and Marcus Bogala

- Special thanks to our guest Laurel Kratochvila for joining us on today's episode. You can learn more about her and her work via her Instagram account, @finebagels. Things Bakers Know is a King Arthur Baking Company podcast. This episode is sponsored by Brød & Taylor. Your best bread is within reach. Brød & Taylor builds tools that help you get there. See what's possible at brodandtaylor.com. This episode is brought to you by Red Star. Red Star has a yeast for every kind of baker. Visit redstaryeast.com to find a retail store near you. Hey, bakers, before you go, one last thing. You already know that King Arthur has a legendary baking school in Vermont and Washington State. Well, a few years ago, we launched a new way to take classes from our world-class educators. You can take these classes anytime, anywhere, it's called "Baking School: On Demand." And guess what? "Things Bakers Know" listeners get a discount. Use code POD25 for 25% off your first order. That's P-O-D-2-5 for 25% off, if you can believe that. It's a deal of the century, but you got to hurry because it expires on January 1, 2027. Pick up a class for yourself or one of your friends or your dog at kingarthurbaking.com.