What Even is a Fall Bake? featuring Rick Martínez

Episode Transcript

David: This season is brought to you by Plugra butter, a premium European-style butter made using a slow churn process. Look for Plugra wherever fine butters are sold.  

And this is how they felt. Little House on the Prairie. Yeah. And they were making their own pumpkin puree. They were disappointed every time, they were like, can I get this in the can?  

Jessica: From King Arthur Baking Company, this is Things Bakers Know. I'm Jessica Battilana, Staff Editor at King Arthur.  

David: And I'm David Tamarkin, King Arthur's Editorial Director. And today we're talking about, you'll never guess, fall baking.  

Jessica: I feel like we're actually like a little bit behind schedule for this because this year, Dunkin Donuts, a place that is known for its PSL or Pumpkin Spice Latte, released that beverage on August 28th. 

David: Yeah, I was in line.  

Jessica: You and hundreds of other people  

David: And every day since then 

Jessica: I mean, I am not, I don't think I've ever actually had a PSL, so I shouldn't say I'm not a fan. I'm just agnostic. Yeah.  

David: You know what, like, this is so confusing, like are PSL things, do they have the latte flavor in like PSL deodorant, for example? 

Does it have notes of coffee?  

Jessica: Is there, is there a milk element to that or is?  

David: Right? Yeah, that's, or is it just, or is it, 'cause we all know there's no “P” in PSL.  

Jessica: Right.  

David: It's all about the, it's just the spice.  

Jessica: I mean, I think it's a, you know, it's a fall baking spice blend. But yes, no pumpkin, often no latte, no coffee, no milk. 

And I actually would be curious to know if the PSL at Dunkin Donuts and other chains like that has actually any spices in it at all.  

David: But yeah, it's fall baking season. PSL is a huge part of it. You've never had a PSL?  

Jessica: Well, you know, PSL has like jumped the tracks, right? Like it's no longer, as we were talking about, it's not just a beverage, it's not just a way of life. 

I saw PSL hummus in the story the other day.  

David: Yeah, of course you did.  

Jessica: I've seen PSL cough drops.  

David: PSL cough. Okay, great. PSL. I've seen band-aids. I'm sure there's like — 

Jessica: There was a limited edition PSL SPAM, you know, SPAM the canned ham.  

David: That honestly sounds good to me.  

Jessica: Oh, interesting. Yeah, I thought that was gonna be, you know, you keep me guessing. 

I thought you were gonna be repulsed. I do think, I mean, some of these things are fine. These PSL things are fine. Some of these things are crimes against humanity. Like I don't think PSL belongs in everything. Like I don't think it belongs in deodorant. I don't think it belongs in beer. I don't think it belongs in — 

David: I would drink PSL beer. I would eat PSL brownies.  

Jessica: Gosh, you're just surprising me. Like you, chocolate, I feel —  

David: I like, I like those spices with, with chocolate   

Jessica: It's like, I know you and then just wow.  

David: But is there, is there anything PSL that you will enjoy or that you could enjoy? 

Jessica: Well, I mean, I think, I mean, I'm not opposed to warm baking spices and there, we are gonna talk about a lot of bakes in this episode that have that like, you know, the cinnamon, allspice, ginger, clove. 

I like all of those things. So I guess maybe I just am like biased against the acronym PSL, you know. Like, I think it's basically something — 

David: You're biased against the trend, which I do understand.  

Jessica: I'm biased against the trend.  

David: But this is an interesting question though for you, 'cause you do identify as someone who likes the fall baking season, right? 

Mm, mm-hmm. But I mean, what's left?  

Jessica: Something happens to me, like it gets, we have like one cool morning in Maine where I live. You know, you wake up and you're like, ooh, you like put on a sweater. And then I'm just like, oh, it's go time. Like let's go. Pumpkin chocolate chip bread.  

David: Yes.  

Jessica: Like let's go apple pie. 

Like I am, like, you know, I'm, I'm fully for it. So fall baking generally, which is why we at King Arthur have been working for quite some time. Like we started talking about what is a quote unquote fall bake, right? What are the essential recipes for fall baking? And that started this whole like very dynamic conversation amongst our colleagues.  

David: For me anyway, I feel an urgency once fall hits. I feel like I wanna have my chocolate chip pumpkin bread. I wanna bake my apple pie. I want to get all the fall flavors into me while they're seasonal and I've got chills in the air, but fall is fleeting. So I was like, can I, where is my checklist? 

Who is gonna keep me on track?  

Jessica: Yeah. I mean, like in fall, the season is fleeting, but you're like, it's time to like turn on the oven. It's time to eat like so many apple cider donuts so you make yourself sick. Right.  

David: Um, it's like in the same way that a summer checklist might be like, okay, I have to jump in the ocean, I have to eat soft serve from this place. 

Mm-hmm. You know?  

Jessica: Yeah. Well, we, so out of this discussion, we were like, let's make a list of the essential fall recipes, and we will share it with the people so the people will know, they'll have their marching orders for the fall. Like, you're wondering what to make. It's on this list, but I didn't wanna make that list. 

David: I didn't wanna make it either, because, you know, it, it got kind of heated really quickly. Yeah, because like we, you know what I thought would be like a checklist, an easy checklist of, okay, here are the essential fall bakes. Really became a question of what is a fall bake, which is what we're talking about today. 

And that's what became sort of contentious. And so I didn't wanna make it. You didn't wanna make it? So we made two of our colleagues make it. I, and I have some questions.  

Jessica: I also have some questions. The trouble is when you hand off a list to somebody else. They may not put everything you want.  

David: Oh, yeah. They may ignore your suggestions completely.  

Jessica: And one of our guests is, you know, it's old hat to our audience, it's our producer, Rossi AnAnastopoupoulo. She's joined by our, our colleague Tatiana Batista, who also, it turns out, has strong opinionss. I'm not the only one with the Jess--opinion, I guess is what I'm saying. 

David: Oh, Tatiana has strong opinions. Have you ever been edited by Tatiana?  

Jessica: Yeah, it's harsh.   

David: Oh, it's a bloodbath.  

Jessica: So I thought we would bring them on the podcast and see what they have to say for themselves about this list, which ended up being 49, a ranked list of 49 essential fall bakes.  

David: Yeah, I am excited to have this discussion in public  

Jessica: Me too, air our grievances once and for all. 

Rossi, Tatiana, welcome. We're so glad to have you on Things Baker's Know, especially because this is an opportunity for David and I to talk about how deeply flawed we think this list that you created is, and to have you justify your choices. But also just to tell us a little bit about sort of the existential question, like when presented with this idea of like what is a fall bake, how you approach kind of thinking about how to make this list. 

Rossi: Tatiana, you wanna take this one?  

Tatiana: Um, sure. Yeah. So I think that when thinking about what you wanna bake for fall, there are the obvious choices, right? There's cinnamon, there's apple, there's pumpkin.  

David: Mm-hmm.  

Tatiana: That's what I think of immediately. And I think that a lot of, when Rossi and I were talking about this and also sharing this with other people around the company, they all thought the same thing. 

But once you take a little bit more time to think about it, that's not all you wanna bake. Right. Like is there's room for savory things? There's room for other cozy flavors. And there are also holidays to celebrate and we're not talking about Thanksgiving, so I think all of those things helped inform this list to be, you know, there are a lot of things that you expect, but we also want you to be surprised. 

Jessica: And then when it, when you guys started to overlay this idea of ranking. Like I remember at one point, like leaving the two of you in a conference room, you were like, we have to sort this. Like we have the things that we want on this list, and now we have to rank them. So like, tell us about how you decided. 

‘Cause I mean, it was, frankly, shocking what happened. And I think, I mean obviously like the ranking is somewhat arbitrary because we didn't put any, you didn't put any recipes on this list that you felt like weren't total bangers, right? Like the things on this list are recipes that are like people love, like have millions of reviews or are like fan favorites internally, or that our test kitchen just developed and we all got to try and we're super excited about it. 

But I wanna get back to the ranking for a minute because something kind of interesting happened as you guys got into like the top say 10. Do you wanna talk about it? You're still too shell shocked.  

Rossi: Are you talking about how we, how we landed on number one? 

Jessica: Yes. Yeah. How you landed on number one.  

Rossi: This might be like the, the underdog story of the year. 

Jessica: Like, you know, this is our mighty ducks moment right here.  

Rossi: I don't know. I kind of don't wanna spoil the number one recipe because people should go check it out. But I will say we like started this long list of all the recipes we wanted on here. We got to 49 total recipes and then we started ranking. Uh, and this recipe wasn't even on that list. 

It didn't even make the long list. It went from off the list to number one, which is really crazy.  

Jessica: It sort of slipped through the cracks and then once you realized it slipped through the cracks and we got talking about it, like everyone is quite passionate about this recipe, myself included. David, you're gonna be a convert once you make it. 

David: I'm excited to make it 

Rossi: It seems like it's, it seems a bit magical. It's, it really is more than the sum of its parts, so it, it's a fun one too.  

Jessica: And I will say, David, and I really appreciate both of you creating this list, stepping into the breach when we didn't want to. I think it's a really fun and exciting list of things to bake this fall and I guarantee that people are gonna find like all the things they want on there, but also like be surprised and delighted by some new recipes.  

Rossi: And we will make sure to obviously link the list in the show notes so people can find it and hope they bake along with us and share on social media too. 

We'll have a fun share feature for them to be able to share how many they've baked on the list. So we'll, we'll see you out in the baking trenches this fall  

David: Without revealing what is in the top 10 on this list. Let's start with you, Tatiana and Rossi. What is your favorite recipe on this list?  

Tatiana: I will say the chili crisp cottage cheese flatbreads. 

David: Oh my god. I literally made those last night.  

Tatiana: Wow, okay. And I know you might be like, that's not fall, but okay, here me out. Hear me out. Chili crisp is seasonless. But I think it especially makes sense for, uh, cooler temperatures,  

David: Uh-huh  

Tatiana: But to me, I would say that fall is really just a return to my kitchen in general. 

You know? Okay. Like, I'm, I'm really not trying to cook. I don't have an AC unit in my kitchen and I'm tiptoeing my way back to baking bread, but a flatbread is the gateway and it, to me, it just really represents a way to get back into my baking routine, which is always aligned with fall and that's why I love that recipe. 

I've made it, I don't know, I've probably made it 10 times. Wow. And it's only been around for about a year or so. And I tell everybody I know that they should make it if they have a food processor.  

David: It's such a hit.  

Jessica: Gosh, I feel like every recipe on our, um, website should have such an impassioned audio testimonial. 

Like, can you imagine if you clicked on a recipe and you just got like Tatiana? Like, okay. Yeah, that is, that's, forget apple pie. Like fall baking is chili crisp flatbread. I, you have me convinced, I'm gonna make, I have not made those yet. But Rossi, you do have to choose just one. Which one recipe? 

Rossi: Yeah, it's hard 'cause there are so many good recipes on here. 

Mine is probably our, our new recipe for sweet potato sheet cake with marshmallow frosting. Um, as listeners of this show know I went to school in North Carolina and so like part of my North Carolina agenda is that sweet potatoes should just be consumed more in general. I like lived off North Carolina sweet potatoes for four years. 

Literally had a crate of them in my closet in college. Um, yeah, when I sublet my room, the girl was like, why are there sweet potatoes in here? But the best way to eat them is this cake. It is so good. It's a sheet cake. So super easy. It's like bright orange. It is like a, I don't know, pumpkin is great, but sometimes you want something different, right. 

So yeah, I encourage people to expand what they think of as a fall bake, which is part of the goal of this list. And, you know, try something other than pumpkin and try sweet potato this year.  

Jessica: Well, and I will offer an early Jess-opinion, which is that like pumpkin in fact does not really taste like much at all, but sweet potatoes are quite flavorful on their own. 

Like if you just roast a piece of pumpkin and a piece of sweet potato side by side, sweet potato's, totally gonna win. Like it brings not just the moisture to that cake, but like it actually has a flavor that's, I would say, judiciously enhanced by the addition of some spices in that cake, but not overwhelmed. 

Yeah. What about you, David? What's your number one?  

David: Well, for anybody who knows me, this will not be a surprise, but my, one of my top recipes on this list is the honey beer miche. I'm a big miche fan. I love miche. You know, it's one of my favorite loaves of bread. It's hardy. It lasts all week. It's huge. And this is such a great example. 

It's a little sweet. It's got that beer in there. You know, for me fall is, is beer season too. You know, I think it uses a stout and so it's, you know, again, these hardier flavors and you can do anything with this miche. I mean, I wouldn't make French toast with it, but like sandwiches, just with butter. I would make croutons with it. I, you know, it's just a perfect bread. It's so good.  

Jessica: Sometimes you just latch onto a recipe and listeners of season one will recognize this recipe that I'm about to shout out again, and it made it on the list. The oatmeal dates, smash cookies. They're a melted butter cookie. You know, they're not outright apple and pumpkin, but I think of dates with that sort of caramelized sweetness as being a fall flavor. And they're hearty and they're oversized, and they would be like, great for afterschool snacks for your kids’ lunchbox situation. They are big. Maybe I'd have to give my kids half. 

That is a really good cookie, and if you haven't made it yet, no better time than the fall.  

David: One of my favorite cookies of all time and definitely one of the, my favorite recipes that's ever come out of our test kitchen is on this list, but I'm not gonna say what it is because it's in the top 10. Okay. Truly one of the best cookies ever.  

Rossi: Oh. So look, I think I know what you're talking — 

Tatiana: Yeah, I agree as well.  

Jessica: Um, and it's the only cookie in the top 10, so it'll be easy for people to find.  

Tatiana: Yeah, and it was a, it was a contender for number one.  

Jessica: Yes. Wow.  

Tatiana: Yes. So good. I wanna go make one right now. 

Jessica: Thank you for putting so much thought and work into this list. It is a treat and I think a great resource for fall baking.  

David: We'll put a link to the 49 Best Fall Recipes Ranked in our show notes. Or you could just find it by going to kingarthurbaking.com.  

Jessica: If you are out there listening and you bake some of the recipes on the 49 Best Fall Recipes Ranked list, leave a comment. Let us know which one was your favorite. We wanna know. 

David: Tatiana and Rossi. Thank you.  

Tatiana: Thanks for having me. 

Rossi: Thanks so much. Happy baking season everyone. 

David: Pumpkin spice and apples are all well and good, but there's another baked good that appears on this list that has a lot of significance in the fall, and that's Pan de Muerto, a bread that's baked in Mexico for Day of the Dead. It's a deeply symbolic, and not to mention extremely delicious, yeasted sweet bread that has lots of regional variations. 

I'm obsessed with this bread. But I'm not the expert and I wanted to learn more about it. So we reached out to my friend, cookbook author Rick Martinez. Rick is the author of two cookbooks, Mi Cocina, and his latest Salsa Daddy, which is, I think, the best name of a cookbook ever. And after years of being a New Yorker, he now lives in Mazatlan in Mexico. 

Rick Martinez, welcome to Things Bakers Know. Thank you for being here.  

Rick: Thank you for inviting me.  

David: So last year I went to Mexico City for a few days in October, and it wasn't on my mind at all that it was close to Dia de los Muertos or Day of the Dead, but when I landed in the city, I just saw Pan de Muerto everywhere. And so that's what I wanted to talk to you about. Pan de Muerto as a traditional baked good is such an important baked good in Mexico and Mexican culture. But I also wanna talk to you about Pan de Muerto right now in 2025 and what's happening to it. So first things first, can you just give me and our listeners just a basic of what is Pan de Muerto?  

Rick: Yeah, so basically it's an enriched bread. Typically it has eggs, some type of fat. I prefer butter. It's almost brioche, and you can fortify them as much or as little as you want. The texture is very important. It's a very soft pillowy bread. It has a beautiful dome, beautiful color. 

It's typically flavored with either orange blossom, orange zest, or anise. And then the, probably the most commonly seen version is a dome shaped bun with crossbones over the top and a little ball in the center, and then that is typically brushed with more fat and then sprinkled with sugar on top. There are hundreds, if not thousands of regional variations across the country that are trying different flavors, and they're stuffing them and they're frying them, and they're making them into sandwiches and dipping them in chocolate. 

So there's a, there's a definite craze that I think is, is new. I mean, they’re, I mean they’re always wildly popular, they exist as a fusion between colonial Spain and European baked goods around the Day of the Dead or All Saints and All Souls Day, as well as Mesoamerican tradition around creating offerings for loved ones passing into the afterworld. 

David: So you mentioned that, that they were topped with a skull and cross bone decoration. What is that symbolizing?  

Rick: Yeah, so I think probably the best thing to do is to kind of step back and talk about death generally in Mexico, and this predates the, the Spanish and European entrance into to Mexico. So in Mesoamerica, there was a very cyclical view of life, right? 

And so death was more of a transition versus a final outcome. And so there was believed to be an afterlife, an afterworld that you just transition from, you know, your, your earthly self into this other state of being, but you still existed. Probably in a different form, but the essence of you was still around and a lot of the symbolism within all of, of Day of the Dead is this belief that life continues. 

And so when you look at, you know, Day of the Dead drawings, for example, skeletons, calaveras are very, very common. But you see them almost without exception, they're fully dressed. And it also, it's not just people, it's dogs, it's fish. It's like pets, everything. And they're always in a state of action. 

They're always doing something, right? They're cooking something, they're going to work. The dog is running around and catching balls. The fish is swimming. And that's really important because the idea that life continues, but you're just in a different corporeal state. And you know, there's another aspect that's really important as well is that the, the sugar aspect, the sweet aspect. 

So this exists both in the Pan de Muerto but also in calaveras. There's like little sugar skulls that are very common. So they're literally, they're molded sugar in the, the shape of a skull. They're typically decorated with royal icing or food coloring, and they're painted, sometimes glued little sequin or jewels or adornments to this. 

And those are used to decorate the, uh, the altar, the ofrenda or the grave site. They're not eaten. But the reason why there's sugar is the sugar represents this, the sweetness of life that includes our earthly life, but also the afterlife, right? So there's no, there's really no distinction between one is better than the other, it's just another state of being and, and the sugar is very important because it really, it speaks to the idea that even death is sweet. But the thing that I think most Mexicans, and myself included, love and crave every October is. You know? And once it's like, you know, October 1st, you're running to the panaderia, like, okay, I need it now. Where is it? And it's just, you can feel that energy and that desire, like throughout the country, and it's, it's, it's palpable and it's amazing.  

David: I'm so happy you gave all that context to this bake. What is the state of pan de muerto in Mexico right now?  

Rick: I think what is different now from a Mexican standpoint is, and, and this is the same in the US right? 

You know, the last time I was in New York, which was like a few weeks ago, one of the things that struck me are the number of bakeries in New York that have lines around the block and the people that eat them are taking photos and making reels out of them. And so like, it's just win-win for everybody. 

Right? And so that is also now happening in Mexico, particularly in Mexico City, Guadalajara, some of the larger cities. And so, you know, everybody in the whole country, if you're a panadero, you make pan de muerto every year. You have to differentiate yourself. You have to advertise and market yourself on social media. 

You need people, you need those influencers. You need Mexican influencers. You need American influencers to come in and tout your products. And so whatever, whatever you can dream up, the crazier it is the better because you need eyeballs and views and likes and all of that. So I think that's, that's kind of what, what is happening. 

I'm not super thrilled by it because like I said, I don't, I think for the most part they're not, they're not being created because it tastes good or because it's like culinary interesting. It's just gonna look good for the gram. So, yeah. But that said, I mean there are some things like that I've seen and that I've done. 

Like I love making marigold sugar. So you take marigold petals and you, you dry them. You can literally just like put 'em on a paper towel and throw 'em in the microwave for 30 seconds, crunch 'em up and toss them in sugar. And now you have an orange sugar that actually has a really nice flavor. Another one is, and this is actually like the ingredient is ancient. It's ceniza de mais. And so you basically take the corn husk. And you burn it, and then you take the ashes and you crumble those up, and then that becomes an ingredient. And those that, you know, that's used in tamales and moles and whatever. But you can also take that and mix it with sugar and then use that to decorate your pan de muerto. 

And I really, really love that.  

David: And that's a black color, I assume?  

Rick: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. So it basically looks like charcoal gray, but it's got, it almost looks like, like charcoal gray, but with glitter. Because, you know, the, the sugar still has a little bit of sparkle to it, but it's matte black. 

But the thing that is most peculiar to me is that it has a very distinctive flavor. It tastes almost like allspice, canela, and a little bit of anise. Like super, super subtle. It's got like this toasted warming spice flavor that the first time I had it I was like, oh, this is a different, like, they, they put something different in the dough. No, it was the ceniza that actually provided that flavor.  

David: It sounds so cool. I mean, I, I love the, the idea of black glitter. That sounds so pretty. Do you have a recipe for pan de muerto in your first book?  

Rick: Yes. Yeah.  

David: Okay, great. And in your, your second book, Salsa Daddy. Obviously a book that's centered around salsa, um, which I, which I absolutely love. This is maybe a silly question, but can you think of any salsa that you would pair with pan de muerto?  

Rick: Oh my god, yeah. There's two chocolate salsas. There's actually also a tequila caramel salsa. Mm, that would be very good. There's a berry salsa. It's like a quick berry jam, but with like a little heat component to it. 

I would pair any of those. I mean, if I was gonna pair something, I would also add ice cream. 'Cause what the hell? You know? 

David: Rick, so thank you so much for, for just giving me all of that background on all that history.  

Rick: Thank you for having me. 

Jessica: This episode is brought to you by our Vermont boiled cider, which is the secret ingredient to the most fall forward bakes. You know, I'm a native Vermonter, and this stuff is practically running through my veins. It's made by boiling down apple cider until it reaches a thick, super concentrated syrup that is tart, sweet, and obviously very appley.  

David: Which is exactly how I describe you to my friends. 

So tart, sweet, and obviously appley. No, this stuff is really good. I buy a bottle of it every fall and it's gone before winter comes.  

Jessica: You can use it to make cakes, cookies, even bread. I also like to add some to a glass and top it with a little bit of seltzer for a fall refresher. You can find Vermont boiled cider on our website, kingarthurbaking.com. 

It's time for our next segment, Ask The Bakers. For Ask the Bakers, we want to hear from you. If you have a baking question for us, head to kingarthurbaking.com/podcast to record a voice message, and we may end up using it on the show. That's kingarthurbaking.com/podcast.  

David: And of course, if you have a baking question that simply cannot wait, you can always reach out to our Baker's Hotline via phone, email, or online chat. 

Just go to kingarthurbaking.com/bakers-hotline. That's baker's dash hotline or call us (855) 371-2253. That's 2 2 5 3 as in BAKE, baby bake.  

Jessica: We have a bunch of questions today. David, are you ready?  

David: I, I've never been more ready.  

Jessica: Okay, great. Let's hear our first question.  

Caller: Hi, uh, my name's Alex. I'm based outta Brooklyn, New York. 

And my question for you all is, uh, what's the different types of, uh, what's the difference between the types of like Vietnamese and Indonesian cinnamon? Uh, those always pop up in the recipes that I use for cinnamon rolls, and I don't really know the difference. And, um, speaking of fall, um. Is it pecan pie or pecan pie? 

Thanks and, uh, appreciate you guys answering.  

David: Boy, is that, I'm, I'm not getting into that debate of pecan-pecan.  

Jessica: This is actually a great question, uh, because I think, you know, for the longest time people bought all their spices at the grocery store. There was one option, so you didn't think too hard about it. 

You were like, it calls for cinnamon. I just go buy cinnamon, either sticks or ground cinnamon at the grocery store. And all of the cinnamon that is sold in a commercial grocery store is a cassia cinnamon. So cassia sort of like the umbrella term for, you know, the run of the mill cinnamon that you've see in the grocery store, but there's also under the cassia umbrella, there's Vietnamese cinnamon, which is also sometimes called Saigon cinnamon, and there's also Indonesian cinnamon. 

And they do have differences in flavor, and I would say, to me like a grocery store cinnamon is all well and good. Like I'll use it for cinnamon toast. I will bake with it. Like there is absolutely no shame in that. But if you try the Vietnamese cinnamon, particularly the one that we sell, it is so aromatic and I feel like it's got this like sort of rich, sharp, spicy, very well-rounded, very, I mean, for lack of a better way to put it, like very cinnamon cinnamon. Like, you know that scene in Wizard of Oz where they go from like black and white, you know, to the technicolor? And I sort of feel like when you go from grocery store cinnamon to the Vietnamese cinnamon, it feels like that. That dramatic.  

And similarly, I think the Indonesian cinnamon is still like a stronger flavor that, and like a more potent cinnamon than the supermarket cassia. But it's a, I would say like a little more sort of woodsy and earthy, maybe a little less aromatic, but also still like, you know, head and shoulders, I think above grocery store cinnamon. 

It does make an impact, especially in a cinnamon forward bake, to use like one of these more aromatic cinnamons. Um, and as for the pecan versus pecan, I think, oh, I think if I don't think about it too hard, I think I say pecan. I think so.  

David: Pecan sounds a little, we're putting on this a little uppity, you know? 

Jessica: Yeah. Pecan pie. But I do, that is one of my top Thanksgiving pies. We're not talking about Thanksgiving pies in this episode, but we'll have more airtime devoted to pecan pie in a future episode. But we gotta answer some more fall baking questions. So let's go to our next one.  

Caller: Hey, Jessica and David. Uh, first time caller, longtime listener. 

I have a quick question about fall baking for you guys. Um, is it ever worth it to make your own, um, pumpkin puree? Does that, you know, make a pumpkin pie or any sort of bread, you know, that much better versus using a canned puree? Um, or is canned just as good? Would love any tips and tricks, uh, going in the fall. Thanks so much guys. Love the podcast.  

David: The answer is no, it's never worth it to make your own pumpkin puree. Just open up a can. Most recipes right now are formulated assuming that you were opening that can, and there's a certain kind of water content that we can rely on. Depend on, and those cans, and you know, depending on how you make your puree, how much you reduce it, it's just gonna be different. 

And I don't think it's going to be worth it. The juice is not worth the squeeze. Well, Jessica, I think you've, let me get you a word in edgewise here in case you disagree with me.  

Jessica: No, and I, I was gonna say like, hell no. Like what a waste of time because you know what the problem is. Not the problem, but the reality, the harsh reality is that by the time you go through all the work of like roasting your pumpkin, scooping it, purreing it, maybe cooking it down like it is no better. 

Perhaps even worse than what you get in the can. Like it's stringy. There's so many variables. So you go through all that work and then you're like, I should have just opened that can.  

David: You're like, this is it? I mean, and this is how they felt in Little House on the Prairie, when they were making their own pumpkin puree. They were disappointed every time. They were like, can I get this in a can? Cans didn't even exist. Make your life easy. Life is hard enough. Open up that can of pumpkin.  

Jessica: I will say though, that I am brand loyal and I don't know if this brand, I don't know how broad the distribution of this brand is, but here in New England we have something called One Pie. And it is, um, I just really love the branding. It's like very, it's a very old-fashioned looking can. I don't think they've changed the can since like, you know, my grandparents bought it and so I am One Pie loyal. I have never done a side-by-side comparison. It may be no different or better.  

David: That's a great tip. 

Jessica: Let's hear our next listener question.  

Caller: Hey, I had a quick question about baking with apples. What would you say is like the best apple to make apple pie with? Let me know. Thanks.  

Jessica: Ooh, that is a loaded question. Well, I mean, there are, have, have fun answering it. Yeah. You know, I've put a lot of thought into this. 

There are hundreds of varieties of apples right in the world, and we're gonna talk about that a little bit more later in the podcast. But at the grocery store, there's maybe a fall grocery store, a well stocked fall grocery store. Maybe they're eight to 10. Right. And I think a lot about an apple for eating out of hand versus an apple for apple sauce versus an apple for pie. 

Those are different things, and I think we are like conditioned as humans living in the modern age to think like there's one apple that can do all of these things, but that is not really true. And so like say you were to make, I love to eat a McIntosh apple, like fresh off the tree, like when the skin is like thin and like really, uh, snappy, you know, but you cook those McIntoshes, Mush-town, USA. 

So like, I guess if you like an applesauce pie, sure. Use like one of those softer varieties of apples. I personally do not, I want my apples to retain some texture in the pie, and so I'm looking for a firm apple that is like a little bit on the sweet tart side. So I know that's being like, I'm not being intentionally vague, but I think like depending on what apples you have access to, that might be like a Macoun apple, M-A-C-O-U-N, which is one that grows here in Maine. That I think is a delicious pie apple. It could be a Braeburn apple, which I think also like holds its shape really nicely and has great flavor, um, and is quite crunchy. I feel like a good pie apple is almost like too crunchy when you eat it out of hand, like it's too firm, but it's gonna soften 'cause that thing bakes for so long. 

I also think sometimes a house blend of apples is really nice too. Like I might use some Macouns, I might grab like a couple of Pink Ladies, which are kind of like year-round, ubiquitous, just to give it a little structure because I think you get like a nice dimension to your pie if you're not just using one variety of apple. So yeah, that's what I advise.  

David: I think that's great advice. And the Braeburn apple is my favorite apple. This is my, this is my go-to apple. You know, it's easy to find, but it's, it's usually really good. I like to eat that out of hand. I like to bake with it. I think it's a great choice, but to your point, I think a mix is always better. 

Jessica: Yeah. I think so.  

David: And then there's Red Delicious, which is delicious. What's, I mean, come on.  

Jessica: It's right in the name.  

David: Yeah, you do, I love eating those. I mean, who doesn't love eating something with the texture of Styrofoam?  

Jessica: And also that waxy coating that's like bitter and — 

David: Yeah, it's, it's like wax. It's like a candle on the outside, packing peanut on the inside. Delicious. Red Delicious.  

Jessica: We’re gonna get some hate mail from like the Red Delicious lobbying boards. Anyway, we've gotten off topic, but I hope that helps you find the pie apple of your dreams this season. Well, we've done it again, David. We've knocked out some listener questions. 

It always gets us thinking and talking about stuff. So if you have a question, remember you can go to kinarthur baking.com/podcast. You can record that question. We will listen to it. We will reply and we'll just keep the, you know, keep the conversation going. We might, we might reply, we might, we might reply. 

I wanna follow up on apples because I feel like we could have, yes, this episode is all about fall baking, but we probably could have devoted an entire episode to apples, honestly. 'Cause there's so many interesting things to think about and talk about. So many things to bake with apples. So many different things to bake with apples. 

But there was a story recently here in Maine that kind of caught my attention and I wanted to share it with you, David, but also with our listeners. 'Cause I think it's just the kind of like arcane information that I just, I love to know about and tell people. So there's this amazing man here in Maine whose name is John Bunker. 

John Bunker has devoted his, basically his life's work to tracking down varieties of heirloom apples. So he goes all over Maine, he looks at old trees, he talks about old trees. He is an expert in grafting trees, like he has brought heirloom trees back from the brink and. He recently made a very exciting discovery that was like all over the news here. So they found the oldest apple tree in Maine. 

David: Hmm. That's cool.  

Jessica: Yes, it's super cool. It's over 200 years old.  

David: Oh, way older than I thought.  

Jessica: Way older. And not only is this the oldest apple tree in Maine, they think it may be the oldest apple tree in the nation.  

David: Wow.  

Jessica: Yeah. It's called the Drap D'Or de Bretagna, the Golden Cloth of Brittany  

David: It’s got that 200-year-old name. 

Jessica: Yeah. It has that 200-year-old name and it's just a, all the names of these apples are so compelling. Like the Ohio, that's for you, the Ohio Pippin. The Grimes Golden. The Hidden Rose. And John, not only does he go out and find these apples on his own, but also like he is actively hunting for apples. 

You will see from time to time there'll be like wanted posters at farmer's markets where he's like, he's read about an apple in some arcane journal and he wants to see if it's still alive. But in this case, I think people came to him and said like, we think we might have this special tree. It's on Verona Island in Maine. 

And to look at the tree like it does not look great, honestly. But John went out to look at it and he thinks that it will remain a vital tree. It will produce fruit this year. And of course now he's able to take like a cutting and graft it onto another tree so that this, like the Drap d’Or will continue into the future.  

David: Wait, is this the only Drap d’Or apple tree in existence?  

Jessica: Yes.   

David: Or is it just the oldest? Oh, it's the only one?  

Jessica: No, I think it's the only one. The only one that's still living that we know of. It's like a lovely greenish gold apple. It's kind of got irregular speckles. It certainly does not look like the picture perfect apples. It's no Red Delicious in appearance. In fact, a lot of these heirloom apples were never intended to be like eaten out of hand. They're apples that maybe are not great fresh, but are exceptional when they're dried and they keep really well or they're not great fresh, but pressed into hard cider. 

That wasn't the point of apples historically, and maybe it's not the point of apples now. Like some things are better suited to different applications. It's fun to think about a fruit detective and, but it's also, I think, well, I don't know. I mean, I think it's important because they are using both like new tools and old knowledge to preserve these species that, like endangered species of animals, like may go away forever without somebody like John championing the little, uh, the little Drap d’Or. And you can learn more about John Bunker. I'm gonna put a link to his fascinating website and his book in the show notes. And just, John, if you're out there listening, I appreciate the work that you're doing.  

David: And she'd like to taste the apple.   

Jessica: And I'd like to, and send me apples. 

Yeah, ask for what you want. I just love when Maine is in the news for something like this. You know, just, I just puff with pride. State pride.  

David: Every episode, we'd like to check in with Jessica to see what wildly surprising and full-throated ideas are in her head, a segment we lovingly call Jess-opinions. 

Jessica. Hit me with your Jess-opinion for this week.   

Jessica: Do you feel like the Jess-opinions are starting to leak out beyond the bounds of the segment? 'Cause I do. I'm like, oh, it's time for my Jess-opinion. Haven't I been offering these all episode long?  

David: Uh, yes, I do feel that way. Yes.  

Jessica: But I do like when you like really sound the bugle to get everyone's attention. That now is the moment for me to — 

David: Right. Just go off. Right. Just now's the time.  

Jessica: Well, so you know, we talked about this list that we have created of these 49 fall bakes, ranked, and I'm just mad as hell about this because the thing that I think of as a quintessential fall bake, the thing I think should have been on the list was omitted. 

David: They didn't listen to you, huh? I was about to ask a silly question. I said, did you offer an opinion on the list? But I don't think we need to ask that.  

Jessica: Well, I think everyone, yeah, I think everyone can answer that question, but in fact, the thing that I think should be on the fall bake list, I guess technically is not a fall bake. It is a fall fry, and that is our recipe for fried apple pies.  

David: Yep. It's a good one. 

Jessica: They're so good. And I like when I started at King Arthur, you know, I looked through all of our recipe content and I said like, there's a glaring omission here and it is a fried pie. I think the thing is we should have a version of the fast food that, specifically the McDonald's fried apple pies of my youth, which I probably had all of like three times in my life. 

But I just remember them so well, like the spiced gooey apple filling, the very crisp pastry crust. Anyway, the test kitchen gamely developed an extraordinary recipe for these fried apple pies, and to me it made perfect sense that it would be on the list at abviously number one, but you know, Rossi and Tatiana pushed back and, and I think their argument is fair. Wrong, but fair. 

They said nobody wants to fry at home. Also, the window of opportunity to eat a fried thing is like very narrow. Like you gotta gobble up with that batch right away. They don't benefit from sitting. So for all of those reasons, good or bad, they left it off the list. But I will let you know, my personal opinion is that fried apple pies should have been on the list. And you could just maybe, you know, print out the list. Put a little asterisk at the bottom, make it number 50. Add it to your fall baking list. 'Cause I, I sure will be.  

David: Be your own McDonald's.  

Jessica: Be your own McDonald's.   

David: Be your own McDonald's.  

Jessica: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

David: Before we go, Jessica, what are you baking this week?  

Jessica: Well, I have been baking a lot from our kids' cookbook, Sweet & Salty!, which —  

David: Because you're a child at heart, that is so sweet. 

Jessica: Because I'm a child at heart and I also have children at home, and this book is like, you know, it just came out September 30th, so it's, I've been thinking about it a lot and also thrillingly, my son, my younger son, has really taken to this book. So actually when I, when you ask what I'm gonna be baking, baking proof of concept. It's proof of concept, I think I'm gonna hopefully not be baking anything, but hopefully I will be supporting my child on their baking journey because he's eager to try. 

We've done a bunch of things. We did the chocolate cream pie, we've done the pizza party buns together. We've made empanadas. We made papusas. But this week he has put the ribbon in the book on ranch monkey bread, which is like traditional monkey bread. The little balls of dough that are dipped in butter and usually cinnamon sugar and then baked together. 

So it's a sort of pull apart loaf. So this is a savory version of that and it has a homemade ranch powder with dried buttermilk and dried spices, and he is excited to try that and I'm excited to eat that. So maybe when we do our Friday movie night, we'll have some ranch monkey bread to go along.  

David: I need all the parents to listen up and hear what Jessica's saying. 

This book is magic. You buy the book, your kids start baking, you get treats. You never have to bake again. It's true. They do all the work for you. I mean, that was the intention of this book and it works.  

Jessica: I will say my children need a little support in the cleaning up department still, you know, we're working on that, but the enthusiasm is 10 outta 10, and that I think is where it starts. 

What about you? What are you baking?  

David: Well, speaking of pride, I'm making a coffee cake. 'Cause I mean, I know fall, for me, fall season. Fall mornings. Fall weekend mornings. Mm-hmm. I just want, all I want is like a classic coffee cake. And my go-to now is the cinnamon crisp coffee cake, which was our recipe of the year a few years ago. And I remember making this cake for a friend and it came out so stunningly perfect. I just, I could not help but be like, I made that. I nailed that. Yeah, I did. That like's the one thing in my life I did well. So yeah, it's a recipe that really works. Really delivers on perfect.   

Jessica: Yeah, it really does. 

David: Classic coffee cake. It's got the reverse creaming method. The crumb on the cake is really decadent. Really fine cake. It's just delicious. Good cake.  

Jessica: Yeah, it's, it is exactly what you want a coffee cake to be. Yeah. That's a great recipe. And like, it is nice to have something like that on a fall weekend morning. For sure. 

Like, treat yourself, you know. So here we are again. We've reached the end. We've talked apples, we've talked fried things, we've talked this incredible list of 49 fall recipes that everyone should bake from. We've covered a lot of ground, but we have now come —  

David: We talked about Pan de Muerto.  

Jessica: Oh, we talked Pan de Muerto. 

Yes, of course. Like all the essential things for fall as ever. Thank you all for tuning in and joining us here on Things Bakers Know. We'll be back with an episode next week.  

David: Remember to like and subscribe on Apple Podcast, YouTube, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts.  

Jessica: And leave us a review when you're there, or let us know what fall bake you have baked from our list. 

Also share the episode and share that list of fall bakes with a friend, because how are you gonna start your own competition, your own fall baking competition without friends baking along with you? Do it.  

David: What will you possibly have to talk about with your friends this weekend if you do not print out this list or you don't share it with them?  

Jessica: And you could tell us if you think she got it wrong. You know, if you think something else should have been number one, send that email to Rossi. Let her know.  

David: Yeah, go to Rossi. Yeah. Well that is, that is a great, it's a great thing about it being a list of 49 because you get to choose your 50. Choose your fighters. We are empowering you, listener. Anyway, we'll see you back here next week. 

In the meantime, don't forget, follow the recipe.  

Jessica: Follow the recipe.  

David: Things Bakers Know is hosted and executive produced by me, David Tamarkin.  

Jessica: And me Jessica Battilana.   

David: Rossi Anastopoulo is our senior producer, Chad Chenail is our producer, and Marcus Bagala is our engineer. Original music by Megan and Marcus Bagala. 

Jessica: This episode featured cookbook author Rick Martinez, friend of the brand, friend of ours. Thank you, Rick. You can learn more about his work and his most recent book, Salsa Daddy, at his website, rick-martinez.com.  

David: Things Bakers Know is a King Arthur Baking Company podcast.