Pancakes are the MVP of Breakfast, with Carla Lalli

Episode Transcript

- Hey, bakers, before we get into the episode, I need to tell you something. You already know that King Arthur has a legendary baking school in Vermont and Washington state. Well, a few years ago, we launched a new way to take classes from our world-class educators. You can take these classes anytime, anywhere. It's called Baking School On Demand. And guess what? "Things Bakers Know" listeners get a discount. Use code "POD25" for 25% off your first order. That's "POD25" for 25% off, if you can believe that. It's a deal of the century, but you gotta hurry 'cause it expires on January 1st, 2027. Pick up a class for yourself, or one of your friends, or your dog at kingarthurbaking.com. Okay, now let's get Jessica in here and start the episode. But yes, sometimes I do that because I'm trying to get 120 grams of protein every day.

- Yeah, you gotta do what you got to do.

- So sue me. Throw me into protein bro jail. From King Arthur Baking Company, this is "Things Bakers Know." I'm David Tamarkin, employee-owner at King Arthur Baking.

- And I'm Jessica Battilana, also employee-owner at King Arthur Baking. And today, talking about pancakes.

- You're a pancake person.

- Oh, yeah. I'm definitely a pancake person.

- Yeah, I am as well. But I also like waffles.

- Well, this is not the waffle episode.

- I'm just saying I'm not going to pit them against each other and you can't make me. Nobody can make me. Our producer Rossi cannot make me. Chad, our other producer, cannot make me.

- I mean, we're always trying to drum up a little controversy, but I think waffles and pancakes, both great.

- Both great.

- But today-

- Different.

- Different.

- I mean, whatever. We're not gonna get into it.

- We're not doing it.

- They're both great.

- We can't be forced.

- Don't write us letters and ask-

- "What about waffles?

- Why we didn't talk about waffles. French toast is a whole other thing. We're gonna get into that in a different episode. But here's what I will say about pancakes: I think they might have a slightly richer history or a longer history than waffles.

- Well, yeah, I mean, I feel like we are saying this on so many episodes that somebody's gonna- some historian's gonna write in and fact-check us at some point, but until they do, I'm just gonna make these specious claims about the origins of pancakes.

- Yes.

- Because pancakes basically date back to the start of humanity.

- Yes, The Big Bang.

- The Big Bang. Because pancake remnants, I mean, I'm gonna fact-check myself 'cause I'm like, question mark, really? Question mark, how do we know? Question mark, are you sure? But pancake remnants were famously found in the stomach of Ötzi the Iceman, who lived sometime around 300, no, 3300 BCE. So people have basically been eating pancakes in some shape or form ever since Ötzi. And this makes sense to me. You know, we've talked about flatbreads on the show before and how it's pretty easy to understand how they evolved. People had grains, whether wild or cultivated, they ground those grains into flour, and they mixed it with water, spread it on a hot rock.

- Or if you put it on a hoe, then it becomes a hoe cake.

- Yes, or a hot griddle, in which case griddle cakes.

- Yep.

- Or, you know, hot pan, which is how we get pancakes.

- Yeah, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of varieties and names for pancakes. In France, where you grew up-

- Bonjour, hi.

- Where you really became your true person, pancakes are crêpes. Dosa are pancakes. Japan, lots of great pancakes in Japan. We recently were talking about the soufflé pancakes in Japan, and also, they have savory pancakes there, which I think is actually kind of a completely different type of pancake, which we're not really talking about, but I'm gonna talk about it anyway 'cause I just love saying the word, okonomiyaki.

- Okonomiyaki is a delicious pancake.

- Yeah, one of the best things to eat and one of the best words to say.

- The reason that I paused when I was talking about Ötzi the Iceman, an existential question floated across my mind, which is like, what makes a pancake different from a flatbread?

- Yeah, I think that's a good question. And I'm gonna guess that back in the day, they were pretty similar, but ever since then, in a short time since then, you know, they now exist in two distinct lanes. And for me, one obvious way that I can distinguish a pancake is enrichment. You know, the flatbreads, when you were talking about ground grain, some water, bam, you're good, there's no fat in there. And most of the pancakes that we just named have butter or milk, sugar, sometimes all three, eggs, and they're enriching it. So I think that is one way to distinguish between flatbreads and pancakes. Not a perfect way because, of course, there's always gonna be an exception.

- Yeah, well, and I think also, the leavening to me is a tell. Like I think of a pancake, well, many flatbreads have no leavening at all. And honestly, that's probably what Ötzi had in his stomach. It's more romantic to think he had had himself like a maple syrup pancake.

- I know.

- Buttermilk pancake breakfast.

- But he, like, found some chicken eggs and, like, you know.

- Yeah, he'd harvested some, foraged some berries. But I think the scientists may have been putting one on, and I think it was probably more like an unleavened flatbread. Because there are some flatbreads that are fermented that use yeast as a rising agent or sourdough starter, but most pancakes are like quick breads. They're not fermented. They rely on chemical leaveners for their loft-baking soda, baking powder. There are yeasted pancakes, yes. There are sourdough pancakes, but I feel like those are subsets of what I consider to be the basic pancake.

- Right. I was about to put out a theory, and I'm already correcting myself, but I'll put it out anyway: maybe the best way to know if it's a flatbread or a pancake is to say, "Would I put maple syrup on this?"

- I mean, I'll put maple syrup on almost anything. I love it so much. I love it so much. But you told me something, well, frankly, quite shocking about the way that you enjoy your pancakes.

- Yeah, well, I mean, you know, another name for pancakes is johnnycake.

- Sure.

- And it turns out the term johnnycake, it really has nothing to do with anybody named Johnny. It's a mispronunciation of the word "journey cake."

- Oh.

- And that really resonates with me because I often take my pancakes on a journey.

- A journey where?

- I really love-

- To pack pancakes in my bag when I go to the opera. And I am not kidding.

- Oh my God.

- Because listen, the opera starts at like 7:00 PM, right? So for me to get there, I kinda have to maybe leave my house 6:00, 6:15. I've been working all day, probably till 5:30, sometimes up to 6:00. How am I gonna make dinner and not go crazy during this three-hour opera, which, yes, there are usually two, sometimes more intermissions, but have you ever bought a sandwich at the Met? They're like $30 for a very mediocre sandwich.

- Yeah.

- So what I do now is I grab, on my way out the door, I grab two or three whole wheat pancakes from my freezer, put them in a little plastic bag, put them in my pocket or my bag. By the time intermission comes, they're thawed, and I just like eat them out of my bag. I'm just eating dry pancakes in the middle of the Metropolitan Opera.

- That is so, so weird.

- It is weird, and yet it's so convenient and it's so good.

- I love it so much.

- It's so good.

- I love it so much. But, like, have you heard of granola bars?

- You know, this is like more nutritious, I don't know. I don't know, it's just who I am now.

- Well. Oh, I love that. I mean, I feel like I know you, and then sometimes, you tell me a story like that and I'm like, and you know other people are seeing you at the opera and then later at dinner, they're like, "I saw a guy at the opera who pulled out a Ziploc bag."

- Pulled a pancake out."

- Like you're that guy that's like fodder for a cocktail hour. Your story, while absolutely insane, does get to an important point about modern-day pancakes, which is that they are seen as a convenience food.

- Yeah, more and more.

- Now.

- Yeah.

- A lot of people use mixes.

- So many mixes. So many mixes.

- So many mixes. An, you know, d I think they're now like, what do the bros say? Functional food.

- Yeah.

- Like they are-

- Built by pancakes, baby.

- Built by pancakes. It's just like a canvas onto which you can add extra eggs, Greek yogurt, flaxseed, hemp seed, oatmeal. I don't know what people are doing.

- Yeah, everything, you know And of course protein powder as well, but there's the natural way to do it and the powder way to do it.

- And I'm not doing any of that. No, I'm not.

- But you are okay with mixes?

- I am okay with mixes, actually. I mean, I have a very good house pancake recipe. And yeah, it's just a straight, well, actually, I was gonna say it's just a straightforward pancake. However, there are a lot of disappointing scratch pancake recipes out there.

- Oh, for sure, yeah.

- And for something that's very simple, there's a lot that are just like, they are too flat, you know? They're not floofy enough. They're tough. So I do like to make them from scratch, but I do use a mix.

- I think it's a good entryway into cooking and baking for kids.

- It is, and I do like a mix, and it is something like a kid can do really easily. It's like good to take on a trip, you know, take to an Airbnb, whatever, if you don't wanna bring all the pantry staples.

- Yeah, totally.

- Because also, some pancakes can be, well, we'll get into this later, needlessly fussy.

- Yeah, I'm not against the mix either. I think I prefer from scratch, but I think there's some easy ways to make mixes really, really good, you know. I think depending on how you incorporate the eggs, I always like to give my egg whites a little beat, even if it doesn't call for it, just to get a little extra air in there. I do like a lofty pancake. I love our Gluten-Free Pancake Mix, and I prefer that to our regular pancake mix, actually.

- Oh, interesting.

- Which really works out when I'm with my family 'cause we have some gluten-free people in the mix. So I think sometimes, people think of pancakes as a decadent food, and I try to make it not, well, I don't see it that way.

- You try not to make it cake.

- I think it could be like a nutritious a fairly nutritious food. If you use 100% whole wheat flour, I think our Golden Wheat Flour is perfect for it, and it's just like eggs. It's not that much sugar in a pancake, you know, I think the decadence in a pancake comes with what you put on top of it.

- Yeah.

- And if you're eating them dry at the opera like I am, it can be a perfectly fine food. And I mean, I think the more stuff you put into it to make it, to up the protein, sort of the more, I don't think it makes it better, but yes, sometimes I do that because I'm trying to get 120 grams of protein every day.

- Yeah, you gotta do what you got to do.

- So sue me. Throw me into protein bro jail.

- Well, you're not the only person that mixes things in their pancakes. Today's guest-

- Yes.

- Carla Lalli.

- Yes. She's sort of famous for mix-ins, although I think she has other reasons for mixing stuff in. Yeah, she's great. Carla Lalli I worked with at Condé Nast many years ago. I got to see up close the type of cook and baker she is. I really like her recipes. She has a new book out, "Food Is a Feeling." She has a very robust Substack presence, so you can check her out there. And one thing about Carla, she may be even more opinionated than you, Jessica.

- Wow, should we just give over the Jess-opinions segment to Carla this week?

- Should we just do a Carla-opinion thing?

- Maybe we will.

- Yeah, yeah.

- Maybe we will. We'll see what happens.

- Stay tuned, everybody. But yeah, we had a really fun conversation about pancakes.

- Well, let's hear what Carla has to say about pancakes.

- Let's do that. Carla Lalli, thank you for coming on "Things Bakers Know."

- Thanks for having me.

- It's lovely to see you. I miss not seeing you every day.

- I know, we were like, we were comrades and colleagues.

- Yes, and I actually wanna start with something that happened when we were working together. This was almost 10 years ago, and this is why I think of you as sort of a pancake queen.

- Okay.

- Is because in 2017, which seems so long ago now, you put out a video, and I think it was one of your earliest videos with Bon Appétit, of going a bulk bin in a grocery store-

- Yes. Oh my God.

- And then going home and making these delicious-looking pancakes with oats and flaxseed and coconut oil. There was a moment in that video that I think really embodies who you are as a teacher, which is that you forgot the salt in the batter. And then you had to add it later. And I was like, and the fact that you kept that in the video, and that you were like, "Yeah, you forget the salt, that's why you have to taste and that's why you add it later, and who cares?" It's so real, and I just, I don't know, I think that's really who you are as a cook and as a baker and as a teacher. So I've always thought of you as a pancake person because of that video.

- Thank you for that. So that was an early iteration of Cosmo's Power Pancakes, which were in "Where Cooking Begins," and we still make them all the time.

- Yeah, and in your new book, "Food Is a Feeling," you have a new pancake recipe, which is Extremely Floofy Vanilla Pancakes. Let's talk about the difference between these two pancakes. So one has lots of seeds in it. I would say it's a nutrition-forward pancake. I mean, I'm sure it's flavor-forward, but there's a lot of what I would call "power ingredients" in it, which is the kind of pancake that I like. Extremely Floofy goes in the other direction.

- Yes.

- First of all, what makes it extremely floofy?

- So the thing that makes it extremely floofy is something that I don't like to do very often in recipes, which is to require you to whip egg whites until they're like a beautiful, stretchy foam, and then fold that egg white into the batter. And that does, among a couple other tricks like not overmixing the batter, and there's also leavener in there, but that whipped egg white is the reason they are so floofy. And they are, in many ways, sort of like a point-counterpoint to Cosmo's Power Pancakes, which are heavier. They have chia seeds, they have flax seeds, they have coconut flakes. And because of the chia, which is very greedy with the liquid, sometimes they do cook up a little denser. Like I wouldn't say they're like dense, exactly, but it's sort of the difference between like milk bread and a 10-grain sprouted, you know, like Danish-whatever health bread. So they're like that in my mind, on two opposite ends of the spectrum. And so I just wanted something that was just that kind of Sunday morning stack.

- I also love that you called the chia seeds greedy, 'cause we always talk about flours and their thirst level, like how thirsty is the flour, which, of course, now has a slightly different meaning. But whole wheat flour being so thirsty, chia seeds, very thirsty.

- Very thirsty.

- So thirsty, always posting those selfies.

- The Extremely Floofy Vanilla Pancakes, they come right after an essay in the book called "Eat Like a Child," and that essay sort of sets up the recipe.

- Yeah.

- Would you mind telling folks about what it means to you to eat like a child?

- Yeah, so in this essay, I really was thinking about the way that children eat, and having been a parent to two boys, like when you watch a child eat before they are conditioned with any of these things that we as adults walk around with, this idea that there are things you're supposed to eat and not supposed to eat, or too much of something, or being already kind of marketed and having gone through diet-culture signaling. And children eat the way our brains are programmed, which is we are hardwired to need and crave food to be alive, and that we are also kind of hardwired for the eating of food to be deeply pleasurable. And when you put those two things together, it is guaranteeing like life on earth, you know? And children respond to that without any of the adulterations that, like, come with becoming grown-up and having to think about food as maybe something dangerous, or bad, or bad for you, or cholesterol, or whatever it is. And so much of this book is about listening to your cravings. I really wanted to kind of turn this idea of "eating your feelings" as a bad thing. I really wanted to kind of investigate that and talk about eating your feelings as, like, the most beautiful, wonderful, like life-giving thing that we can do, you know? Like that is, to me, when someone says "eating your feelings," I imagine myself sitting at a table filled with friends where we are dragging bread through whatever sauce is left on a platter, and I do think about my children finishing something delicious and then picking up the bowl to drink what was left, you know? They're not thinking about their table manners, they're just thinking, "That was good. I loved it, and I want more," because that's a normal reaction to pleasure.

- I just appreciate that sentiment. I appreciate that you're pointing that out in the world.

- Thank you.

- I just wanna say one more thing about your Extremely Floofy Vanilla Pancakes, which is that I deeply appreciate the photo of it because the photo shows pancakes that are not completely round. They're a little amoeba-like, and I feel so seen by this photo because I'm always like, "I'm supposed to be slightly professional. Like why can I not get a perfectly circular pancake? And my pancakes look like, they look like science." You know?

- But it's a little bit like, you know, when we all got turned onto the idea of a craggy crouton as opposed to a perfectly square-cut, like flat-sided crouton. It's a little bit like looking at the map of the seaboard, and if you have like a lot of inlets in your edge of your pancake, that's just more like places where there could be a crispy bit. And if it's perfectly round, it's just all gonna be one texture.

- Yeah.

- In the making of "Food Is a Feeling," I really thought about food photography a lot, and having been at Bon Appétit for so long, and we talked about this kind of stuff all the time, and I wanted that mess a little bit.

- Totally. Okay, we are in an election year.

- Yes.

- And so I want to get clear on some of your-

- I can't wait to hear where this is going. Yes.

- I wanna get clear on some of your pancake policy positions. Where are you on certain pancake policies? So I'm gonna throw some out and you give me your pro and con. If you feel like explaining yourself, fine. Pancake policy number one: frying pancakes in butter.

- Sure.

- Pro?

- Oh, okay, great, okay.

- I mean-

- I think it's controversial.

- It is controversial because butter can burn, right? I think that's mostly the problem.

- Yeah, yeah.

- Yeah, what I like to do is I will put down some vegetable oil, like a neutral oil, grapeseed oil, whatever, I will grease the griddle with that, and then I will come behind it with butter. But I'm not gonna say don't cook a pancake in butter.

- Yeah, I agree that would not be a popular policy position. As your campaign manager, I support that. Do you support weekday pancakes?

- Yeah, totally. I used to make Cosmo's Power Pancakes all the time on weekdays. And what I would do is I would pull all the dry ingredients together the night before, I would take the eggs out and just put them on top of the flour mixture so that in the morning, it was just melting the butter and putting the buttermilk in. But yeah, maybe other parents sort of hated me for that, but it's achievable.

- Okay, do you support pancakes for one?

- Yes.

- Okay. And how would you do it? Would you make the full batch, or would you make a smaller batch?

- I would make the full batch, and then anything that I did not eat, I would let cool, put into a Ziploc bag or a deli container, and either put it in the fridge or pop them in the freezer. And then that is also like, you are a hop, skip, and a jump away from a weekday pancake if they are premade and frozen.

- Totally, let's talk about toppings. Okay, maple syrup, I'm gonna assume you're pro. Honey?

- Not my fave.

- Oh, okay.

- Before I went to honey, I would look and see if I had jam. So if I didn't have maple, I would want like blackberry jam or raspberry jam or whatever, and then it would go to honey. Honestly, butter and salt might happen before honey did.

- Yeah.

- I like honey. I like honey, don't get me wrong. I like honey in my yogurt, I like honey in a parfait, but it's something about, it's both a little too sweet, and I don't love the texture on my pancake.

- I'm with you there. There's something to me that just doesn't feel right about it.

- I like it in a PB&J. I like honey in a PB&J.

- Oh, let me talk about that.

- And in fact, we have a recipe for Cosmo's PB&J and J and J and J, which is a story about a sandwich that Cosmo, my younger son, made for me, which is a maximalist peanut butter and jelly.

- Yeah.

- And he does jam and honey and salt.

- Oh, wow.

- Yeah.

- I love that, okay.

- Yeah.

- Okay, let's talk about additions. How do you feel about chocolate in pancakes?

- I don't care for that.

- Okay, blueberries in pancakes?

- I don't, I'm on record with this, I do not want a hot blueberry, either.

- Yep, yep.

- You could put blueberries on the plate, I just don't want a hot blueberry in my pancake.

- Cheese. To make it like a savory pancake, maybe?

- If it like was designed to have cheese in it, I'd be into it. But I think putting cheese in something that has been dialed in as a sweet pancake might not work.

- Yep, nuts, this is the last one.

- Hmm. Mm. Mm, chopped up, chopped up nuts. Yes.

- Yeah, yeah, okay. Actually, I lied, there's one more.

- Okay.

- Bananas?

- They're complicated. They're complicated. They get a little viscous, and they present problems for the pancake cook because they're heavy, they will sink through the batter, and then they're making contact with the heat source and they tend to burn.

- Yep, bananas are disgusting, so I am anti-bananas overall. Last thing I wanna kind of get your take on is the main problem I have with pancakes is when to serve them and when to eat them. And this is the problem of like, when you're making pancakes for more than just one person, or actually, even just one, I'm often making it just for myself, if I wait, the pancakes get cool, especially as we discussed, we're doing all the batter, so we're making all the pancakes for the freezer. When do people eat the pancakes? Right off the griddle and no one's eating together, or do you like to keep them warm in an oven?

- Hot off the griddle.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, I just feel like you have to honor the pancake and the pancake eater with that. I've never been a put-it-in-the-oven-and-keep-it-warm, especially with something like this recipe that does have whipped egg white. They're gonna fall. It's just not optimal.

- I think we have to convince America that pancakes are not a sit-around-the-table, eat-all-together thing. I think so many people try to do that, and it's really about something else that you cover in your book: the kitchen island dinner, right? The kitchen island breakfast. It's just like, you're hanging out, here's a pancake, eat it. Keep me company while I make mine, and we'll keep going like that. We're not gonna set the table.

- Totally. Totally.

- I'm really talking to my mother right now.

- I mean, I think you can set the table, and I think you can be sitting there, and maybe there are other breakfast foods there. Maybe there's a yogurt situation, maybe there's a fruit situation, but people are being called, "Who is next? Pancake!" And then you're running into the kitchen, and you're coming back, and everybody, you might be running back to the table when someone else has half a pancake left to eat, and then you can eat together.

- Right, all right, Carla, you've given me so much joy talking about pancakes, and I appreciate you, and I appreciate you spreading the joy to other people with your book "Food Is a Feeling" and your enthusiasm for pancakes. And good luck in running for pancake president.

- Thank you so much, yes.

- You have my vote.

- Pancakes for everyone. Single-payer pancake.

- Right.

- Yes.

- This episode is brought to you by Cabot Creamery. Cabot Creamery is a farmer-owned cooperative dedicated to making delicious, high-quality cheese and dairy products, and 100% of profits go back to the farm families that own Cabot Creamery. Butter is great in all sorts of things, and at 83% butterfat, Cabot's extra creamy, premium salted and unsalted butters are the secret to extraordinary creations. With more buttery goodness and less moisture, Cabot's Euro-style butter enhances browning, flakiness, and flavor in all your recipes. Every ingredient in your favorite recipe is important, but fresh creamery butter like Cabot's unsalted and salted butters is the key to the best pastries, sauces, frostings, and cookies. And of course, let's not forget about that all-important pat on top of your stack of pancakes. You can visit Cabot's website, cabotcreamery.com, for recipes, pairing suggestions, and a curated selection of gift boxes for every occasion. That's cabotcreamery.com. This episode is sponsored by Snooze Eatery. At Snooze, breakfast isn't just the first meal of the day, it's the best meal of the day, an opportunity to slow down, connect, and enjoy something delicious. Snooze puts a fresh spin on morning classics, from fluffy French toast to creative brunch favorites, and of course, my favorite, great pancakes. And like King Arthur, they're also dedicated to sustainability, community, and connection. You can find Snooze locations across the country, including right next door to our Charlotte pop-up, which opens later this fall. Visit snoozeeatery.com to learn more and find a location near you. It is time for our next segment: "Ask the Bakers." For "Ask the Bakers," we want to hear from you. If you have a baking question for us, head to kingarthurbaking.com/podcast to record a voice message and we may end up using it on the show. That's kingarthurbaking.com/podcast.

- And of course, if you have a baking question that simply cannot wait, you can always reach out to our Baker's Hotline via phone, email, or online chat. Just go to kingarthurbaking.com/bakershotline. That's kingarthurbaking.com/bakers-hotline.

- That's right.

- Gotta get the dash in there. Or call us at 855-371-2253. That's 2253, as in B-A-K-E.

- Let's hear our first question.

- Hello, I am a home baker living in Scotland and regularly use King Arthur Baking Company's recipes with moderate success. However, I cannot achieve fluffy breakfast pancakes. What's the secret?

- Oh my God, I'm flustered. I love the Scottish accent. It's truly, I think, one of the most beautiful accents in the English language.

- Did you know that I'm part Scottish?

- No, I didn't.

- Yeah, my grandmother.

- Can you speak-

- Cameron Clan.

- In that beautiful accent?

- I can't.

- Yeah.

- And I've never been to Scotland.

- Okay.

- And I think this caller's problem may be that, aren't you supposed to just be having scones in Scotland?

- Hello to our international listeners.

- Yes, I love it.

- Bummer that we can't give you our flour because we're not sold internationally.

- I know, I know. But that's not the problem here. You should be able to make a fluffy pancake from any flour, and we do have some tips for how to do that.

- Well, you started to talk about one earlier. You were saying, like, "Oh, I always like to, even if the recipe doesn't call for it, I like to beat my eggs a little bit."

- Right, one thing you can do with a pancake is, even if the recipe doesn't call for it, you can separate the eggs, mix the yolks into the rest of the wet ingredients, whisk those in, mix the wet ingredients into the dry. So your batter's almost done, but now you have the egg whites that have not been incorporated, and whisk those. And you can whisk those to a soft peak, all the way to a soft peak.

- Yep.

- Or you could really just kind of give it like a little vigorous hand whisk for 30 seconds or a minute or so, just to get some extra volume in there. Either way, it's gonna give a little more loft to the pancake because the egg whites are trapping air, and that air will help your pancakes rise. The more you whip your egg whites, the more foolproof that method's going to be.

- And you see that technique. I mean, for pancakes, you see it also for waffles a lot. I know this is not a waffle episode-

- I said I was not gonna discuss waffles.

- But when I see that, I think to myself, "Ugh, I don't wanna do that."

- I know. It's an extra step and it takes extra time, but it does work.

- But it works.

- It works, yeah.

- But I think there's some other things, I've spent a long time thinking about this, actually.

- Oh, okay.

- And sort of tinkering around, because sometimes I make my pancakes, same recipe, and they come out really fluffy, and sometimes they're like a little more squat.

- Okay.

- And I was sort of trying to like, "Okay, what are the variables we're working at here?" And one of the variables, I think, is the amount of liquid that you add.

- Okay.

- Because I think sometimes, people add too much because they're just following the recipe, so they dump in what the recipe says. I like to hold back a little bit of the liquid, which is typically milk, and I want my pancake batter to be pretty thick, even have some lumps in it, 'cause I think if you've gotten it to pourable-

- You're never gonna-

- Maybe you're more in crêpe territory then.

- Yeah, you're gonna have a hard time getting a truly fluffy pancake. I also think my personal house pancake recipe has a lot, and I mean a lot, of baking powder.

- Okay.

- It's like a cup and a half of flour to maybe two and a half teaspoons of baking powder.

- And they don't taste like baking powder?

- They don't taste like baking powder.

- Okay.

- But I use a lot of it. And then I think the third thing, you have your leavener, you have your thick batter, but then I think you really have to, like, get the griddle at the right temperature. And this is where I'm gonna say something, gonna upset some people. You know, I see a lot of pancakes that are sort of fried in butter.

- Yeah.

- I think that's tasty. You know, you get the sort of crispy edge.

- Yes.

- But I don't usually do that because I think the secret to a pancake that is truly fluffy, aside from the things we mentioned, is that you put it on a hot griddle and you cook it fast. 'Cause I think if you have butter in there, you know, then your butter's gonna start to brown and then burn at the temperature that I think you want.

- You wanna cook your pancakes at a temperature that would burn the butter.

- Yes.

- So that's the problem.

- Yes.

- Okay, those are all great tips. Yeah, playing around with this baker, if she has a recipe that she loves, she could definitely play around and increase the leavener a little bit and see if that does anything. Also, always a good idea to check your leaveners to make sure they're active. Just do the little, you know, for baking soda, it's what, apple cider vinegar test.

- Yeah.

- Yeah. And there's one other thing you could do, which is you could use rings, ring molds, which is like the Japanese soufflé pancake. But what that does is it will contain the batter, and since it can't spread out, it's got to go somewhere. It's gonna go up, it's gonna give you a fluffier pancake. So those are great tips, and I hope they work.

- Yeah, I was trying to come up with some, like, Scottish catchphrase as our sign-off, but I couldn't, so we're just gonna let it lie.

- Just go Scotland.

- Go Scotland. Let's take our next question.

- Hi, my name is Otto. I am eight years old. I love buttermilk pancakes. Is there anything else you can make with buttermilk? Thank you.

- I'm glad that Otto, was that the name? Gave his age 'cause new rule, listeners, you have to give your age if you want. We're not gonna answer any more questions unless you give your age.

- No, Otto is actually my nephew, but I didn't know he was calling in with this question.

- Oh, really?

- This is a surprise to me.

- Cute, very cute.

- Yeah. Well, buttermilk's a great thing to have around.

- Yes.

- One of my favorite things to do with buttermilk is to make biscuits.

- Yep, of course, yeah.

- The other thing that I like to do is use buttermilk as, like, I know in a previous episode, I went on a screed about ranch dressing, store-bought ranch dressing, but then I think I tempered it by saying that I really do like a homemade ranch dressing, which is like a creamy, herby dressing. And I'll use buttermilk as a base for a salad dressing. I think that's really nice. I don't know, do eight-year-olds eat salad? Actually, Otto does eat salad, so he might go for this.

- I think eight-year-olds love to dip.

- They love to dip.

- So you can dip anything in a buttermilk dressing.

- I think that's true. Of course, you can use buttermilk in cakes. And also, I do think it's useful to remind people that you can freeze buttermilk, and I will measure it out into amounts that make sense, like half-cup, cup, and freeze it in zip-top plastic bags because I am guilty of buying buttermilk and then forgetting about it. Oh, and the last thing I'll mention, and again, I don't know if an eight-year-old's going to attempt to brine a chicken in buttermilk, but our friend and previous podcast guest Samin Nosrat, she has, I mean, I would say now like famous recipe.

- World famous.

- World-famous recipe for a buttermilk-brined chicken.

- Yeah.

- And often, you see buttermilk used as a step before, like in fried chicken, right? You let it soak, which tenderizes it and adds some flavor. But hers is a brine for a whole chicken that roasts, and that gives it a very nice burnished color, a little tanginess, a little tenderization. So Otto, go brine yourself a bird. Do you have any other suggestions?

- I do, I have one, you know? Where I come from, the heart of the country, almost the South, grew up right on the Ohio River.

- Right by Kentucky.

- Right by Kentucky. We just drink it.

- Yeah. I do actually like buttermilk.

- Just drink it.

- Yeah.

- And you know what we do in the South? The South is gonna kill me 'cause I'm not Southern.

- What, were you in South Ohio?

- Put a little cornbread in your buttermilk.

- My grandfather actually, we're really getting into my heritage, my Scottish heritage, but on my mother's side, my grandfather was from Covington, Kentucky, and he liked to do that.

- Oh my God, are you and I cousins?

- Are we?

- Oh no.

- We should get on ancestry.com. A lot would make sense. I think really delicious, especially if you can get like a, I mean, I hate to say like artisan buttermilk, but, you know, like they sort of vary, like a grocery store buttermilk versus like a farm buttermilk.

- Right, actually, also another great use of maple syrup: cornbread, and then a little bit of maple syrup in your buttermilk.

- That sounds great.

- Very good dessert.

- Thanks, Otto, for your question.

- Yeah, and thanks. And hey, listen, we just discovered that we're in our family, so Otto, you're my nephew now, too. Nice to meet you.

- Let's hear our last question.

- Hey, King Arthur, I love making pancakes for breakfast, but I always mess up my first pancake. I feel like I can't get the temperature right, and I end up with this little sacrificial pancake. Is there any way to make sure the first pancake comes out as well as the others? Thank you.

- Well, I believe you have a Jess-opinion about this.

- Well, it's interesting that they call it "the dreaded," 'cause I'm like, "Oh, you mean the snack that you eat?" You know, like that's a great , I think I actually like a first pancake. The first pancake is helping you determine how hot your griddle is.

- Yes, that's why people call it "dreaded," because it either comes out burnt or really pale, you know? And it's like, "Oh."

- Yeah, and then you dial it in. I mean, it's nice, like tester. There's no shame in a tester.

- Yeah.

- And you're gonna eat it anyway.

- Well, you know what my experience has been? It's like people always say, "First pancake, first pancake." I'm like, well, for me, it's sometimes like the first three.

- Yeah.

- I mean, I don't know, I don't always get it right on the second try either. I always eat it.

- Yeah.

- It's always edible.

- It's like the first tortilla, any of that thing. You know, that's how you calibrate. I mean, I think if you have an electric griddle, a great thing to have if you have space for it, you could set that to like 350, 375. If you don't have an electric griddle and you're just going on a pan, and you have an infrared thermometer, you could check it that way. But also, there's ye old-fashioned way, which is just to take a little bit of water and flick it onto your pan, and the water should dance on the surface. Dance.

- Dance, water, dance. Yeah, so the dancing, right, not just sizzle, dance, bounce around, and that's when you know it's hot enough for a pancake.

- Yeah.

- Those are good tips. I think that you really got to be nerdy about your pancakes to get out the-

- Yeah, the infrared thermometer.

- The infrared thermometer and check it, and guess what? That's me. I do it.

- Yeah, I mean, if you're gonna whip your egg whites for your pancake, you're out there with a thermometer.

- Yeah.

- I'm just gonna wing it 'cause I'm not bothered. I'm not bothered by that first pancake. I like that first pancake, and I sometimes make them like little tiny ones, little silver dollars.

- Well, that's a good tip, too.

- And that's just a snack.

- If you wanna kind of, quote-unquote, waste less of pancakes, just make a small first pancake.

- I don't know why people are so, okay, I'm not saying that this caller is so adverse to a test. I love a test, you know? Give me a test.

- Oh, really? You just ace them all?

- Yeah, just give me the SATs.

- Oh, wow.

- No, not the SATs. But I'm like, if you have the opportunity to try something in a small format before you've committed the whole thing, like so many things in baking, you can't do that. You're like, "Good luck, cake, hope this works out," or like, "Hope this pan of brown," you know, whatever it is. When you try a new recipe, you're like, "I hope I like this." But there are few things where you can test, and what a gift. That dreaded sacrificial pancake is a gift is what I say.

- Nice, I like that.

- Just like being on this podcast with you.

- So the answer, caller, is check yourself and just reframe everything.

- Yeah. Yeah, it's okay.

- Don't worry about it.

- Don't worry about it.

- Or dial in the temperature of your cooking surface.

- Yeah.

- Well, there are a lot of Jess-opinions in there.

- Oh, I mean, always are.

- Always are. But I believe we have another one.

- Official, official.

- So let me tee you up. Every episode, we like to check in with you, Jessica, to see what wildly surprising and full-throated ideas are in your head, a segment we lovingly call Jess-opinions And now you're gonna give us your official pancake Jess-opinion.

- I sure am. And I'm gonna take this opportunity and this platform to shout out one of the greatest pancake places in the world.

- Okay.

- I mean, I haven't been to every corner, but Polly's Pancake Parlor in New Hampshire, in the White Mountains, it's been around for a very long time. It's just a great spot. If you're ever in a three-hour drive of Polly's

- Is this now like a travel recommendation segment? What is this? Where's the opinion?

- Well, I'm gonna give you the opinion 'cause I wanted to get in a shout-out for Polly's. I receive no commission for recommending them. I just love it. They put maple cream. Have we talked about maple cream before?

- I think.

- Yeah, I think so. So whipped maple syrup. They just put bottles of maple cream on every table.

- Oh, nice.

- As much syrup as you want, and the servers are the ones who make your pancakes.

- Oh, really?

- Yes.

- That's really interesting.

- It is. So your pancakes are always very fresh.

- Huh.

- And they do a lot of different styles of pancakes. So they have a plain pancake.

- Yeah.

- They have a whole wheat pancake, cornmeal pancake.

- Oh, love.

- A rice pancake, an oatmeal pancake, a gingerbread pancake, and then you can get mix-ins. You can get a sampler of different styles of pancakes. So of course, curiosity kills the cat, is that how the expression goes?

- Yes, yes.

- And I order them, and I was like, "You know what? I don't want a whole wheat pancake, I don't want a buckwheat pancake, I do not want a cornmeal pancake, I don't want a rice pancake, I do not want a gingerbread pancake."

- You don't want a chocolate chip pancake?

- I don't even want a chocolate chip pancake.

- Wow.

- I just want the pancake base to be plain.

- So the Jess-opinion is the best pancake is-

- A plain pancake. I want a plain cake. Everyone can do what they want at Polly's or elsewhere. You can have your opera pancakes, your whole grain opera pancakes. And it's not that I don't, from time to time, enjoy like a heartier pancake. It's just that when I think about a pancake, I want a fluffy stack of white flour pancakes with butter and maple syrup. Case closed.

- Are these buttermilk pancakes when you say plain?

- I don't mess with buttermilk. Just milk. I don't even need buttermilk.

- Wow, okay.

- Yeah. That's who I am.

- Wow.

- Plain Jane.

- Plain Jane, simple.

- Simple.

- Uncomplicated.

- Yeah, I don't want to protein-max my pancake. I don't want to whole-grainify my pancake, and that is my opinion for this week.

- Okay, well, that's a great Jess-opinion, and I'm sure it will inspire lots of comments to our Substack or YouTube, wherever people are watching or listening to this.

- Yeah, people are gonna be like, "I love a whole grain." I know, I know, I hear you. It's fine, I'm not mad about it. Live your life.

- Live your life.

- Eat your protein pancake. What are you making this week? What are you baking?

- I'm making protein pancakes.

- Yeah, of course.

- With tons of stuff in it.

- So much stuff.

- Carrots.

- Raisins.

- Turkey.

- Oatmeal, beef jerky.

- Yeah. So Thanksgiving's coming. I know we haven't, it's kind of crazy that we have spent this whole hour talking about pancakes, we're not talking about Thanksgiving, because everybody's thinking about Thanksgiving right now, including me. I'm gonna do a dry run this week to see if I want to incorporate our Ultimate Flaky Biscuits into this year's Thanksgiving meal. For the past few years, I've been making the Big Batch Potato Rolls from "The Big Book of Bread," which is also a recipe you can find on our YouTube channel. It's so good. I mean, these rolls are tall, they're fluffy, they're so soft, they're pull-apart, they're very, very Thanksgiving.

- Yeah.

- But these biscuits are also really good, so I'm like, "Is this gonna be a biscuit year? I'm gonna find out. I'm gonna test this recipe."

- It also comes down to, like, are you a person who wants butter on your bread, or are you a person who wants butter in your bread?

- Oh, yeah.

- You know? Also, your thought about the dry run, that's basically like the tester pancake.

- Yeah.

- You know, which is smart.

- It's a gift.

- It's a gift, 'cause you don't want to get into holiday unknowns. Like that's not the time to mess around with an untested situation.

- Absolutely not. And one of the benefits of, if I do decide to go with these biscuits, that they can just be in the freezer.

- I was about to say that's smart. And be baked right before we sit down.

- Yeah.

- That'd be great.

- That would be great.

- Yeah.

- I'll be over at what, like 6:00 or-

- The rolls are kind of a little, you know.

- It's hard.

- They have to be tended to.

- Yeah, they do, and biscuits are fast to bake.

- Yes.

- You know, like whereas rolls take a little bit longer, occupy the oven for longer.

- Yeah.

- Well, it's interesting, we unintentionally got to the Thanksgiving bread basket. I've never done this for Thanksgiving, but I got a bee in my bonnet about popovers recently.

- Okay.

- Have I ever made popovers? No.

- But you enjoy a popover?

- I do enjoy a popover.

- Yeah.

- It seems like a nice thing to make, sort of like a biscuit that you can slot into that carb to have with soup, carb to have with a meal. That's pretty fast, that's not as time-consuming as bread.

- Yeah.

- So I'm gonna try my hand at that.

- Okay.

- You know?

- Well, good luck to you.

- Maybe our Scottish caller could give me some recommendations for popovers, 'cause I think of those as being something from the Isles. At what point is a popover Yorkshire pudding?

- Yeah.

- That's a debate for another episode.

- Anyway, callers, thank you for calling in this week.

- I always love to hear those listener questions.

- And listeners everywhere, thank you for listening.

- Remember to like us. I just wanna always remind people, please like us. Our happiness depends on it.

- Our self-worth.

- Our wellbeing and self-worth depends on it. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to or watch your podcasts so you know when the next episode is coming out. Spoiler: we have another one next week.

- Yep, and while you're listening, please, if you want to, and you want to, leave us a review and share this episode with a friend. This is how we grow, this is how we get new bakers into our fold, and we want more and more bakers. We wanna take over the world.

- We do.

- So we want every baker in the world listening to us.

- One biscuit at a time.

- I mean, and look, we're already in Scotland.

- Yeah.

- And we're already in nursery schools or wherever eight-year-olds live.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- Our reach is great.

- Yeah.

- And in the meantime, as you always like to say,

- Follow the recipe.

- Follow the recipe.

- Yes. "Things Bakers Know" is hosted and executive produced by me, David Tamarkin.

- And me, Jessica Battilana.

- Rossi Anastopoulo is our senior producer, and Chad Chenail is our producer and editor. Adam Baffa is our associate editor.

- Devin Shepherd is our production coordinator. Engineering by Matt Boynton of Ultraviolet Audio. Original music by Megan and Marcus Bagala. Thanks again to Carla Lalli for appearing on today's episode. Learn more about her and her new book and her Substack at carlalalli.com.

- "Things Bakers Know" is a King Arthur Baking Company podcast.

- This episode is brought to you by Cabot Creamery. Cabot Creamery is a farmer-owned cooperative dedicated to making delicious, high-quality cheese and dairy products, and 100% of profits go back to the farm families that own Cabot Creamery. Every ingredient in your favorite recipe is important, but fresh creamery butter like Cabot's unsalted and salted butters is the key to the best pastries, sauces, frostings, and cookies. And of course, let's not forget about that all-important pat on top of your stack of pancakes. You can visit Cabot's website, cabotcreamery.com, for recipes, pairing suggestions, and a curated selection of gift boxes for every occasion. That's cabotcreamery.com. This episode is sponsored by Snooze Eatery. At Snooze, breakfast isn't just the first meal of the day, it's the best meal of the day, an opportunity to slow down, connect, and enjoy something delicious. Snooze puts a fresh spin on morning classics, from fluffy French toast to creative brunch favorites, and of course, my favorite, great pancakes. And like King Arthur, they are also dedicated to sustainability, community, and connection. You can find Snooze locations across the country, including right next door to our Charlotte pop-up, which opens later this fall. Visit snoozeeatery.com to learn more and find a location near you.

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