Diving Deep on Doughnuts, with Fany Gerson

Episode Transcript

- [Jessica] This episode is sponsored by Brod & Taylor, helping more people bake bread, gather around the table, and share something made by hand.

- It's a game.

- It is.

- It's a game with hot oil. You're playing with literal fire. And good luck.

- From King Arthur Baking Company, this is "Things Bakers Know." I'm Jessica Battilana, King Arthur's Staff Editor.

- And I'm David Tamarkin, King Arthur's Editorial Director. And today it's our doughnut episode.

- It's doughnut day.

- Long time coming.

- Yeah!

- Doughnut day. Is there a Doughnut Day? I think there is.

- Oh, there's definitely a Doughnut Day. There are multiple doughnut days.

- Yeah.

- And today is one of them. And I'm gonna start today's episode with a little story time. Gather round, children.

- Oh, I'm here.

- So there is a family story about doughnuts that I thought was like a nice, it's another one of my-

- A Battilana family story?

- Yeah, a Battilana family story. It's another one that's like, is it funny or is it sad? I'll let you decide, but, kinda like my car crash one in the Chinatown Bakes. If people haven't heard that, they can go back and hear about that.

- Okay, yes.

- So a similar story. So listeners of this podcast, and you, know that I grew up not far from King Arthur headquarters in rural Vermont. And I was probably like eight or maybe 10 years old. And it was a snowy, winter day. And I got a call from a friend inviting me to come for a play date.

- Okay. I waited for that call.

- Never did-

- My entire childhood.

- So, you know, I browbeat my parents into taking me to my friend's house. We, at that time had an old Pontiac station wagon, you know, the kind with the wood panel?

- Oh yeah.

- Or the wood panel, I'm using quotes 'cause it was not really wood. And so I begged my dad, and my dad sets off to my friend's house, which is like up a, you know, windy dirt road, as many houses in rural Vermont are. And we get like partway up the road and the car will not, like the tires are spinning.

- Ooh.

- Like, we can't get up the hill.

- Gosh!

- No traction. And I'm desperate to go to this play date. I probably, like you, Like they were probably few and far between. And so I was bound and determined to go to this play date. So I said to my dad, "It's fine, the house is just around the bend; I'll walk."

- That tracks for you.

- Yeah.

- Knowing who you are, yes.

- Yeah, independent child. And my dad was like, "Okay." So he drops me off and he goes, I think to work or something.

- He slides down the hill.

- He backs up, he leaves me on this road. I start walking. And I round the bend, and it's the strangest thing, but the house is not there. And I think I must have just misremembered.

- Okay.

- So I keep walking alone on the dirt road, and it starts snowing like a little harder now. And I'm walking and I'm walking and I am walking. And, you know, this is like pre-cell phone. Meanwhile, the family that I was supposed to have the play date, has like called my mother and said like, "Your daughter has not shown up."

- Oh no. Oh my gosh.

- And then this car drives up.

- Okay. I would run.

- I know. 'Cause this was like peak eighties, stranger danger. Like, do not talk to strangers. Do not get in a car with strangers. And this older man-

- Is he not in the dark, snowy world of Vermont.

- In the dark, snowy woods of Vermont.

- No.

- And he leans out the car window and he's like, "Are you lost?" And I at that point was like, "Yeah, I'm lost. Like I don't, you know, like I shouldn't get in the car with this, but also like, I can't keep walking forever." And so he says like, what-

- It's gonna end badly either way. Like, choose your poison.

- So he's like, "Get in the car and I'll drive you to my house and you can call your parents."

- So, you did?

- I did. I did.

- Oh, Jessica.

- I got in the car. This story is a happy ending though. And we drive a couple of miles down the road to his old farmhouse-

- Wait, I'm waiting for the doughnuts to show up.

- Doughnuts are about to show up. We go into his house. His wife is there. They're quite elderly. And she is frying doughnuts in their house.

- Wow.

- Just for like an afternoon snack.

- Oh wow.

- And I was like, "Actually this like, worked out all right for me." Like I was so cold.

- Hit the jackpot.

- I come in from the cold and it's just like that smell of like a freshly fried doughnut. It's like "Hansel and Gretel" a little bit, you know?

- Oh, a little bit. Yeah. A lot.

- Anyway, all's well that ends well. They call my parents. My parents have to borrow somebody else's car, like a truck to come rescue me. And they're like, "Your daughter's safe here eating doughnuts."

- Oh my God.

- My parents showed up. They sent us home with like a half dozen freshly cooked cake doughnuts. And I lived to tell the tale, so.

- You know what, for a minute I thought the story was gonna be like, and I decided to stay. And that family became my-

- My mom and dad. But I think, I mean, I tell you that story because obviously it ties into doughnuts. But there was a time in my childhood, and I think probably for other kids that grew up in rural areas where people did make doughnuts at home.

- I think it was more common.

- It was more common.

- Back in the day.

- Back in the day. But still, it felt like a pretty extraordinary thing to wander in from the woods to discover.

- Yeah.

- Anyway, doughnuts, the topic of today's episode-

- Were the doughnuts good?

- They were great.

- And were they, this answers question-

- Oh, here we go. Here we go.

- I think I know the answer.

- You know the answer.

- Were they cake doughnuts or were they yeasted doughnuts?

- They were cake doughnuts.

- Yes, of course.

- And to this day, I mean, I'm already gonna tip my hand early here and say that I love a cake doughnut. I mean, I like yeast doughnut too, but for me, when you say like, what is your like, perfect doughnut, it's gonna be a cake doughnut.

- It's really a who are you at your core question.

- I think it is. Are you fluffy and insubstantial, but sweet?

- Are you... Right. Mm-hm.

- Yeah, I think that's what, is that what you were gonna say?

- No, but I like that.

- I mean, and doughnuts are, people made doughnuts, you know, I think people made doughnuts at home prior to doughnut chains being ubiquitous, which they are now. But doughnuts are a uniquely, well, I don't know if that's fair to say. They are an American bake. You know, we've talked about biscuits-

- The doughnuts, the round doughnut that we think of I think is.

- Is, but it of course has, you know, it originates, as all things do, with something else, which is, you know, Americans were not the first people to fry dough in hot fat. I mean, and the credit is given to the Dutch for, you know, today, the modern day doughnut that we think of as a yeasted or, you know, cake doughnut fried in oil is a descendant of the something called oliebollen or oil balls, which were just balls of fried dough. So that's like, you know, I mean, I think that has roots anywhere there was, I've said this before, I feel like anywhere where there was hot oil and dough, like of course people tried to fry it.

- Yeah. Why not? Yeah.

- But the modern doughnut-

- Right. But that doughnut that you're talking about that was brought to America by immigrants, European immigrants, like you said, it was like the doughnut hole, or maybe it was a little bit bigger, but it did not have a hole in the middle.

- A hole in the center.

- It was a round of dough that had been fried and maybe put, you know, tossed with sugar. The hole I think is an American invention. And it's an interesting story 'cause in doing research for this episode, came across a really great article from "Smithsonian Magazine," which we'll put in the show notes and in our Substack. Subscribe to the Substack. About how the hole came to the doughnut. And the legend is, and who knows if this is true. But the legend is, there's a woman named Elizabeth Gregory, who was the mother of a ship captain. And she was a fan of, you know, making fried dough. She used his spices from his travel. So that's where, you know, the nutmeg and cinnamon came into play. And she, being worried that the middle of the dough would not cook-

- Oh, wow.

- Which of course is what something we'll get to, which is really a key thing in frying, in frying everything but doughnuts especially. She put nuts, like hazelnuts and walnuts, in the middle of the dough. She wrapped the dough around the nuts and dropped them into the oil so that the dough would fry around it.

- With the nuts in their shells? That's an absurd question.

- Well, I have no idea.

- Okay.

- But that's where you get the name doughnuts.

- Dough nut.

- Yeah.

- Who knows?

- Is that true? Who knows? But I love that story.

- I love the story. It's almost as good as me being kidnapped, but ending in doughnuts.

- But that's where the, but that's the, you know, the origin story of the hole. And then of course later the hole was done mechanically. Now, I love this story too. The first machine that made doughnuts, you know, that dropped the doughnuts into hot oil was a phenomenon. And people lined up in Manhattan to see this first machine in action at doughnut shops. And what's funny about that is that today in Manhattan, I mean, I could tell you just like a week ago, in the middle of Times Square is an enormous Krispy Kreme-

- Oh, sure.

- Where people line up outside the windows and inside of course, too, but like to watch doughnuts being made. I mean, it's just-

- Yeah, doughnut theater.

- Doughnut theater. It's a great word for it.

- It is mesmerizing.

- Yeah, it's mesmerizing. And I think actually, a lot of Krispy Kreme locations have that element of, that voyeuristic element. They show the doughnuts on the-

- Smart. Like conveyor belt kind of thing-

- The conveyor belt, yeah.

- Getting covered in glaze.

- Yeah, the glaze waterfall. But it's an entrancing thing because doughnuts are very, they have a pull, right? They have a deep pull on people. Sort of like what we were talking about with croissants in a previous episode where it's the type of thing that, you know, a lot of people are not eating every day. A lot of people are not making them at home. Although I would argue that they're much, much easier to make at home than a croissant.

- Yes.

- And so there's a decadence and sort of extravagance to it that I think is very appealing and really draws people to, you know, to wanna watch than being made.

- You know, I mean, doughnuts have the nostalgia factor, but they also, I mean, they have like deep cultural roots.

- Oh yeah. For sure.

- You know, I mean the Jewish tradition, we have talked about this before, sufganiyot. You know, also in the Christian tradition, like doughnuts are traditionally made, you know, for Fat Tuesday. The idea of being like, you're using up like your eggs, your butter, your sugar, your frying oil as this indulgent treat before, you know, the sort of Lenten.

- Yeah.

- Abstinence.

- Yeah, here in the Midwest, there's a whole day around Pączki Day, which is the doughnut day. People line up all over for pączki.

- Also, I wanna say that our test kitchen just developed a pączki recipe. And somehow, I don't know how, I missed every single testing and retesting.

- I did too. But I actually think I'm gonna make those pretty soon, because I just, they look so good. I'm just struggling to I need to find a day when I will have something to do with a dozen doughnuts.

- Yeah, other than sit on the couch and eat them.

- Right. Right. Yeah. Who will I give it to?

- And the pączki are traditionally jelly-filled.

- Yes.

- Like the sufganiyot.

- Yeah, like sufganiyot. Yeah, a jelly doughnut, yeah, as you said, has many different names, but a lot of them are just the same thing, and a lot of them have significance.

- You know, and one interesting sort of piece of doughnut trivia that you and I were reading about and getting ready for this episode was about doughnut lassies. And these were women who volunteered during World War I and II to fry doughnuts for soldiers.

- To fry doughnuts for soldiers in France to give them, you know, sustenance to, you know, and to motivate them, but also to give them something, you know, that tasted a little bit like home.

- Right, right.

- Yeah.

- And at that point, they were called, it's interesting, I mean, you like, the etymology is sort of cool to think about, but they were calling those soldiers doughboys, but not because they were eating these doughnuts.

- No, maybe we went the other way around. They're like, well, they're doughboy so we're gonna get, what else do you feed a doughboy?

- That's what they say.

- A doughnut.

- They say that, like, that term doughboy actually dates back to the Civil War. And it was like, you know, I guess for sort of lame soldiers, it's such a name because like, I don't know, the buttons on their uniforms looked like balls of dough. Who knows?

- Oh, okay.

- Who knows if this is real. But the term doughboy preceded the serving of doughnuts to troops in France. But, I mean, just-

- You know, in some ways, that's a kind of a cute term of endearment. In other ways, I don't know if I wanna be called a doughboy, you know? I'm like, I served this country by going to war and you're calling me a doughboy?

- You're calling me a dough boy.

- I don't know if I love it. But I will take the doughnut.

- Yeah. Yeah. And doughnut lassie on the other hand, like, I mean, that's kind of charming. I'm surprised nobody has taken that name for like a chain yet. This could be our second act.

- Here we go.

- Third act.

- King Arthur presents-

- Doughnut Lassie.

- Doughnut Lassie, yeah.

- So when's the last time you made doughnuts at home? If I may ask?

- That's a good question. It's been, it's been a few years. And I think I've only made yeast doughnuts at home. And one thing that I love is that, I mean, you really can fry a lot of yeasted doughs. And so I don't think, like frying the dough for like a loaf of white bread is gonna be a particularly delicious doughnut. But I've fried savory doughnuts out of focaccia with like rosemary in them and like rolled them in salt and chopped rosemary.

- Oh, look at you.

- This is like, yeah. Yeah, look at me like-

- Oh, wow.

- When did I have time to do that? But I did that.

- I mean, we messed around with frying pizza dough for "The Book of Pizza."

- Oh yeah. That's basically a doughnut.

- Which is a beignet, which is a doughnut.

- Exactly.

- I mean, you know, by any other name.

- Yeah. I've had more success with yeasted doughnuts at home. I don't know, I don't know why. I kicked them, so it's certainly faster.

- I know why but we'll talk about that later.

- Okay.

- I have theories about why.

- Okay. Yeah. How about you?

- Oh, it's been a long time. I talk about it a lot, 'cause I, unlike most Americans, have no fear of frying at home.

- Yeah.

- I'm always frying. It's like, I just always have a kettle of oil on, who knows what's gonna go in there.

- 'Cause you never know when a lost child's gonna show up.

- Exactly.

- Right. And I'll have freshly fry some doughnuts for them. I do think the frying at home is a pain point for people. And we're gonna talk about that, 'cause I want to get everyone over the hump. But I mean, I think there is, like, there is a, there's another option. There's, you know, the big chain Krispy Kreme, Dunkin'. Tim Hortons maybe, if you're-

- Yeah, the Canadian-

- In a certain part of the world. But there are a lot of, I mean, I'm shuddering at the word artisanal, but there are a lot of artisanal doughnut makers now.

- Yeah.

- Which is like the third place, right? Like, if you're not making 'em at home and you don't wanna go to a chain, Like there have been a lot of doughnut disruptors who have cropped up. And one of our very favorite is the guest on today's episode.

- Yeah.

- Fany Gerson.

- Yeah. I love Fany. She's great.

- Fany. Friend of the brand.

- And her doughnut shop is not necessarily, you know, a Mexican doughnut shop, but it's got some, you know, it's got some canela in there and some other Mexican flavors. And she's just like, they're like big puffy yeast risen doughnuts. Very delicious. Worth going to Brooklyn for. The one thing-

- Called Fan Fan Doughnuts.

- Worth going to Brooklyn for.

- But like a lot of things that we see, you know, like people are putting innovative spins on it. And I think Fany is, you know, very smart about interesting, like, new flavor combinations or like old flavor combinations applied to doughnuts in a new way. Just like really creative and interesting. And she's terrific. So we're gonna talk to her about doughnuts.

- Yeah.

- Fany Gerson, thank you so much for joining us here on "Things Bakers Know." For anyone who doesn't know you, you are the author of three cookbooks and you also have three different establishments in New York City, right? You have a paleta spot, you have a sort of casual Mexican restaurant, and then you have Fan-Fan Doughnuts, which is why we wanted to get you on the show here today.

- Yes. Well, thank you so much for having me.

- What strikes me about Fan-Fan Doughnuts is that, you know, you sort of apply all of your training, like your Culinary Institute degree, your years working at fine dining restaurants, like your rigorous pastry background to a form that is like, I think really familiar to a lot of Americans. So it's like something that resonates with so many people that people have like a lot of nostalgia for, but you have tweaked it. So let's talk about that and sort of like your inspiration for, 'cause these are not, the doughnuts you're making, it's not like your regular glazed or butter crunch or jelly-filled. Like, they're definitely doughnuts 2.0.

- Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for the kind words. Yeah, like to me, the doughnut, I grew up in Mexico City, so of course I had doughnuts, you know, growing up, but they weren't, you know, it's not a quintessential treat the way that it is in the States. And so when I started making doughnuts, I came from sort of an immigrant point of view. And so I like to, you know, sort of, I said, because I'm not trying to recreate something from my childhood or, you know, and people have very strong-

- Yeah.

- You know, feelings and memories linked to something like doughnuts. And so I want to kind of honor and respect that, and so I said, well, it's sort of my approach bringing everything that I have done so far in my career, but also how I see the world. And I use the doughnut as a canvas to explore different cultures, different flavors that excite me, that, you know, make up New York. But also I wanted to do it in an approachable way. So my intention is when people come to the shop, they can right away see or feel that it's not your average, you know, or your typical flavors, not your average, your typical flavors. There's something special, but it's also approachable 'cause it's still a doughnut, you know, I don't want it to be precious. But we make everything from scratch in house. No colorings, no flavorings, including the sprinkles.

- Wow, I mean, and that is, that is very, very unusual, I would say. Because I think most people might not know, like if you take your sort of run-of-the-mill doughnut shop, you know, often they're making the dough itself from a mix. Or if they're making the dough, you know, from scratch, then like the cream filling is from a can. The jelly is from a bag, you know, the glaze is perhaps premixed. Like, it's, you know, I would say the exception to find a doughnut shop these days where every element is made from scratch. You make what, like a dozen varieties on a weekday and then like a couple dozen different varieties on the weekends? Is that-

- We usually have at least, like, I'm gonna say 16 flavors on a weekday. We have certain ones, I think about nine, that we always try to have like our classics, what we call our classics, which are the flavors, what you think of classic flavors, but also what have been around since we opened. But I always wanna make sure that we have, you know, like the classics, you know? We have a really, you know, one of my favorites is our cinnamon sugar. And we take whole Mexican cinnamon and grind it and, you know, to make it. And it has like this beautiful floral taste from that cinnamon and the classic glaze. So we always like to be inventive, but for me it's always important to have something for the more sort of curious or adventurous and, you know? But it's things that regardless of what they're, like, sometimes people come and apologize, like, "I'm so sorry, I just want a plain glazed," I'm like, "No, don't apologize. There's a reason they're classics."

- Yeah, I mean, it's kind of like an ice cream parlor in that way.

- Exactly.

- It's like you expect to find chocolate, vanilla, strawberry, you know, and then they might have wild ones, but you kind of wanna have those anchors for people that are like to me, a doughnut is this. I had read something about, speaking of cinnamon, that you use some sort of cinnamon tea to flavor the dough, is that-

- Yeah.

- Okay. Tell us about that.

- Yeah, so when I did my research for my first cookbook, "My Sweet Mexico," and I learned to make churros from this guy in the state of Tabasco in the market. And they were very unusual. And there was something different about them. And I've had quite a lot of churros in my life. And there was something about them, like a kind of, and I couldn't place it. And he was kind enough to let me see how he made it. And he made the a cinnamon tea. And that's what the liquid. And it adds some kind of seasoning to it. It doesn't, it's, but it's kind of the way that when you put salt and pepper to a steak, you know, you don't necessarily, unless it's a lot, you don't necessarily, like, if it has just salt, you don't necessarily taste the salt, but it brings out all these other flavors. So at La New Yorkina, when we make the churros, I started making them like that. And so when I started at Fan-Fan, I said, I'm gonna, when I was developing the recipe, I tested with water, with milk, with a combination. And then one day I said, "Hmm, I wonder if doing the cinnamon tea does anything to it? And then, and then I was like, "I think it does." But I thought maybe is it just me? Or, you know what I mean? I like the idea of it because, you know, sort of the story behind it.

- Romantic. Yeah.

- Yes. And so then I did sort of blind tastings with friends and family. My husband was a very willing guinea pig.

- Yeah.

- Compared like, the recipe, once I had, it was gonna be like water-based, as a liquid, but side by side, you know, literally. And there was something that it did to it. Like, again, a kind of seasoning. But it also, I think some of the, again, I'm not a chemist at all, but I feel like some of the natural oils also do something to it. So we make like big batches of whole Mexican cinnamon tea. And that's what we use. But we also use fresh ground nutmeg that we grind ourselves.

- I'm sure there are a million desserts that you could kind of mine as potential doughnut flavors. So tell me about the process of like, creating a new doughnut flavor for the shop. Is it like you see a dessert and you think like, oh, can I doughnut-ify that? Or how does that happen?

- I think my creative, I'm just a naturally creative person. Like, my mind can't stop. And I suffer from insomnia. So I often, my ideas come at 4:00 in the morning.

- Sure.

- And it's just, it's actually rarely influenced by a dessert.

- Mm.

- It's usually, it can be anything from, you know, went to the farmer's market and I saw this, or there was an element in something savory that I tried, whether it was like a part of a garnish or, you know, a crunchy element or, you know, a book that I'm reading or I love art, or sometimes even music. You know, a lot of flavors are rooted in nostalgia for sure. But I also love to do a lot of collaborations. And that, I really, it's a lot of work be, but it's a work that I create for myself, so. So I do, like, this would be the fourth year, I think, I'm gonna do like an AAPI box. And then I also, I love to have the little details, you know, but nothing, nothing with tweezers, you know? We're nothing against, like, I don't, I don't wanna-

- Yeah, it's maybe not the spirit of a doughnut shop, right?

- Exactly.

- To make it like too fussy.

- You know, like, it's still a doughnut. We try to be consistent, but it's the beauty's in the imperfection, you know? It's in the, in the not exactly round always. Like, sometimes it's a little bit, you know, more oval shaped. Sometimes it drips a little more, sometimes it drips a little less, but it's consistently delicious. And I have to say, I know you didn't ask me this, but there's something really amazing about people going into a doughnut shop. Like it's adults, it's like, you get the kid in them comes out. It's just exciting to be there. And so to be able to bring joy. And I get to do that for a living.

- But Fan-Fan Doughnuts is an extraordinary place. You're an extraordinary baker.

- Thank you so much.

- You've done so much for the City of New York with all of your businesses. And I just, I love the way that you, you know, you sort of honor the tradition of doughnut making, you honor your own heritage, but you're just pushing forward in all these exciting and creative ways. So thank you for joining us.

- Oh, thank you. And thank you so much for having me.

- [Jessica] This episode is sponsored by Brod & Taylor. Brod & Taylor is an independent family-owned company that builds tools for all bread bakers at every level to transform complex baking challenges into simple pleasures.

- [David] Brod & Taylor, I mean, they are so passionate about bread and baking. When I talk to those folks, it really feels like I'm talking to someone at King Arthur too. There's that synergy there. 'Cause we only have one thing on our mind, it's baking, baking, baking.

- [Jessica] I love their tools. They really, truly are an asset for every home baker. And you and I both have quite a few of them in our own kitchens. You know, my favorite, I think is the countertop proofer. I don't know you're into the baking steel, but they have a lot of great tools. Whether you're a first-time baker or you're like in-deep like us, there's something for you at brodandtaylor.com. That's brodandtaylor.com.

- [David] This episode is brought to you by Supernatural. Supernatural makes sprinkles, food colors, and flavors that are colored by plants, fully traceable and totally free from anything artificial or synthetic.

- You know, every time I go to the doughnut shop with my kids, invariably, one of them chooses the sprinkle topped doughnut. And that is because it is a proven fact that sprinkles make everything more fun. Whether it's pancake batter, a bowl of ice cream, a frosted cake, or a doughnut, they are all enhanced by the mighty sprinkle.

- From whimsical sprinkles color with plants to playful natural flavorings like gummy bears, take your next batch of doughnuts all the way with Supernatural. You can find their sprinkles, food colors, flavors, and more at kingarthurbaking.com or supernaturalkitchen.com. It's time for our next segment, "Ask the Bakers." For "Ask the Bakers," we wanna hear from you. If you have a baking question for us, head to kingarthurbaking.com/podcast to record a voice message and we may end up using it on the show. That's kingarthurbaking.com/podcast.

- But, you know, sometimes you just can't wait three months for us to answer your question.

- Correct.

- And in those circumstances-

- In those circumstances, get some patience.

- Get some patience.

- You know, learn some patience. Sit down, read a book. Wait.

- I mean, maybe the answer's on our website, but if not-

- Probably. Yeah.

- You can also go to kingarthurbaking.com/bakers-hotline and a real live person will answer your question via phone, email, chat.

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- It's a beautiful thing. Now, let's hear our questions.

- [Caller] What's the secret to getting perfectly light and fluffy yeast-raised doughnuts? Okay.

- Yeah, what-

- What is the secret? I mean, the thing is, there are lots of secrets, right?

- Yeah, I mean, I think the, well, we were talking earlier very briefly, and I said we would revisit this idea. And the idea that I wanted to revisit is, you know, this question of, you know, really what we're getting down to is like how to prevent a dense doughnut, right? Whether it's a cake doughnut or a yeast-raised doughnut. So we'll start with yeast-raised since that was a question that was asked of us. But I think with the yeast-raised doughnut, like you've gotta take a little bit more care with the dough. So you wanna proof it so that it's, you know, well-proofed before it goes in the oil, right? So minding the temperature, minding the time of that, that proof or that second rise is gonna go a long way towards having a light and fluffy doughnut.

- Not rushing it.

- Not rushing it. But I think once, you know, supposing you've done all that right, here's where it comes down to, the frying. And this is true, whether it's a cake doughnut or a yeast doughnut, you have got to get the temperature of your oil right. And in order to get the temperature of your oil right, you also need to be frying in enough oil.

- Hmm.

- Right? Because it's really hard to maintain temperature if you're like, have some rinky dink little pot of oil. Like, you need a good amount of oil.

- Yeah.

- You need to be monitoring the temperature of that oil with a, you know, deep frying thermometer. And then you can't crowd the pot. Because if you add, you know, a doughnut, whether it's cake doughnut or a yeast doughnut to oil that's not the right temperature, either too cold, it's gonna soak up oil like a sponge, gross. Too hot, is gonna burn on the outside and be raw on the inside, like, you know?

- Right.

- Which is the whole point of having a hole in there, is that you're trying to avoid raw dough in the center.

- Right, and you know, and there are plenty of doughnuts that do not have holes. In fact, the sum of my favorites: jelly-filled, the cream-filled, the Bismarck. We've not talked about the Bismarck doughnut.

- We haven't.

- Requires that you really cook that thing all the way through. So you're never going to know if it's cooked all the way through unless your temperature is correct and you're following the recipe for the time. Because the time given a recipe is conditional on the oil temperature being on point.

- I mean, and I've done it both ways. Like, I have messed up in both directions: too cold, too hot. You know, so I, you know, I know what I speak. And I also think, you know, I said when I started answering this question like, you wanna make sure you've proofed your dough right, but I didn't really tell people, like, what to be looking for, right? So I think that is, if you have your, you know, your cutout yeasted doughnuts, they're rising nicely, you go and you take your floured fingertip and you press it into one of them gently, you know, you're not stabbing it, it should like spring back and fill in that indentation slowly. And then you know. Like, if it sticks in all the way, not great. If it pops back immediately, not great. So you want to kind of slowly fill in that indentation and then you know that it's properly proofed. Just like bread. I mean, same, you know, sort of test for proof. I think those tips will be helpful.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- And you're really speaking to me and bakers like me who are like, I don't wanna use all this oil. I don't wanna like waste all this oil. So I don't wanna, you know, I'm gonna try it in a smaller pan. But you're right, that's just a fool's errand. And it is a very good point and a reminder to people that the minute you put anything in a vat of bubbling oil, the temperature goes down.

- Yeah, it goes down, dramatically.

- You know, and so the more doughnuts you put in there, the more it's gonna go down. So you really, it's a game.

- It is.

- It's a game with hot oil. You're playing with literal fire, and good luck.

- Yeah. Good luck.

- It's worth it.

- It is worth, it's totally worth it. Let's go to our next question.

- [Caller] I hate wasting all that oil when I fry. Can I reuse it? Speak of the devil.

- Yeah.

- That was me calling. I don't know if you recognized your voice, but that was me.

- I mean, this is the thing, this is the whole thing that gets people down.

- Yeah.

- They have oil anxiety. First of all, I just wanna say in the grand scheme of things, a giant jug of oil, not expensive. You know, because you're using, you know, canola oil, vegetable oil, not, you know, not expensive. You can't buy big jug-

- Yes, it is a good point. Do not, do you not fry your doughnuts in olive oil.

- No, you don't need olive oil for this.

- That's also not gonna taste very good, I don't think.

- No, it's gonna be gross. Yeah. So, but still, it doesn't change the fact that like, you then have this vat of, you know, like if you're frying, I like to fry in a like, high-sided deep pot, like a Dutch oven and something like that. So like, it's six cups of oil, eight cups of oil. So, okay, you can go in one direction and not the other. You know where I'm going with this. Like, you can presumably fry your doughnuts, let the oil cool, strain it.

- Yep.

- Put it back in, you know, back in the bottle or back in storage containers.

- You are gonna strain it through cheesecloth.

- Yeah. Or a fine mesh sieve.

- Or a fine. Okay. Right.

- And then you can-

- 'Cause you're trying to get all the little burn bits, 'cause otherwise it's gonna flavor your oil and make it go rancid. But also if you heat it up again, it's gonna burn immediately, so.

- Yes. Yes. So then you could go say from doughnuts to, you could probably get a couple batches of doughnuts. You know?

- Is that what you do?

- Yeah, or I'll do doughnuts and then french fries.

- French fries. I like to do fish and then doughnuts because I love that savory element in my doughnuts, you know?

- Also, I think people are sometimes are like, "Well, how many times I can use the oil?" Like this is where the old nose comes into play. Like, if you smell your oil and it smells rancid, it's going to taste gross. So give it a sniff. You'll know if it can be used again.

- Also a good rule of thumb for anything that smells rancid.

- Yeah, just like, if it smells off, don't reuse it. But I find I can usually get a couple of rounds. And so I strain my cooled oil. I store it in like quart containers in my pantry where it's like a cool dark place, and you can come back to it. And I would say like, yes, you can come back to it for doughnuts, but in reality, people aren't making like a batch of doughnuts every weekend. I mean, I wish I was, but. So the other thing that is annoying for people is like, what do you, like, okay, once the oil has run its course, it's like, then what do you do? Not down the drain. You know, you can compost used oil in a lot of places. Cooled used oil. So that's great. But if you don't have a compost, and even if you do, so there's this product, and I've already evangelized about this product when we were talking about sufganiyot last season. It's called FryAway.

- Why were we talking about sufganiyot?

- Why weren't we talking, holiday baking baby.

- Oh, okay. Yeah. Holiday baking. Right. Yeah.

- So, because we just love to talk about fried dough, we just can't get enough. But FryAway, for anyone who didn't hear me talk about it in that last episode, is it's like a powder that you sprinkle on your cooled oil. You gotta cool your oil, then you sprinkle it on, and it turns your oil into like a solid disc.

- It's so cool.

- It's so cool. I mean, it's amazing, so-

- And then you cut that up and you-

- You spread it on toast.

- Right, you spread it on. Right, you're like, dinner's served.

- Close the circle. Then it's obviously much easier to discard like a solid disc. Like you can go in your trash, you can go in your compost. It's not like the greasy volume that you'd have. But it's not that hard. You know, people do hard things all the time.

- It's not that hard.

- Oil is not something to be feared.

- No.

- It's something to be embraced, because at the end of that oily rainbow is a freshly fried doughnut. And I think, I can't believe I haven't said this already in this episode, but when you get a doughnut, for me, it's a cake doughnut, fresh out of the oil, and it's like craggy on the outside and like a little crispy, and then you bite through and then you have that, like, nutmeg-y soft interior, I mean, like, what's the point of living if you're not doing that.

- It'll make you reject your parents and-

- And move in with some strangers.

- And move in with some strangers, yeah.

- Truly. So.

- It's true. It's so worth it. And I just wanna note that, you know, I think people have this idea that this jug of oil that you've, you know, if you strain it and, you know, put it in a container and put it somewhere and that you have to use it again, en masse, but you don't. You can use that oil to like fry some potato pancakes or to fry some vegetables. I mean, do any frying you need. You can parcel that out.

- Totally.

- There's no reason you have to use it in bulk each time.

- That's so true. That's a good point.

- So just think about that.

- Yeah, think about that.

- Just think about it when you're trying to go to sleep tonight. Think about all that beautiful oil.

- I think we have one more question.

- [Caller] I love doughnuts, but hate frying. Is it possible to make great baked doughnuts that rival fried? 

- Well see people, see, I mean, here we go again, the fear of frying.

- I mean, no, I mean, is it possible to make a baked doughnut? Yes. A baked doughnut is a different thing though. Like if you love doughnuts, what you love is a fried doughnut, I imagine. You don't love a baked doughnut. Nobody's like, oh, I'm really craving a baked doughnut. Like a baked doughnut is what you have 'cause you've given up.

- Goodnight.

- Good night and good luck. No, I think a baked doughnut is a different thing.

- It's a much different thing. It's cake. It's cake in a ring.

- It's cake in a-

- it's like a little Bundt cake or something.

- Yeah.

- And, you know, they can be very delicious.

- Yeah, sure.

- And we have some baked doughnut mixes and we have the pans, and obviously it's a lot less fuss, you know, to make a baked doughnut.

- Yeah. But it's not a doughnut.

- But not that much less. And honestly, a cake doughnut is pretty fast to make. There's no, unlike a yeast doughnut, there's no rise time. The dough for a cake doughnut, I don't know if people know this, but like, it's pretty quick. Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of recipes, you have to like, give it a little chill. You can make them in a morning, you know?

- Yeah, and you know what I would say for this person who's asking, I think there is another thing you could make, which is the doughnut muffin, which is not a doughnut in shape. You know, it's a like a vanilla muffin, nutmeg-scented vanilla muffin. And when it comes out of the oven, you dip it in melted butter and then you roll it in cinnamon sugar. It is doughnut-ish. It's not a dough, but they are very good. And I would say they're even easier.

- Wait, you're rolling it, wait, you said this-

- Butter.

- In melted butter. Right, right.

- Melted butter.

- Yeah. It's really good.

- I Mean, and that's nice too because you get a little bit, like, you get a little extra fat and you get a little crispiness from that and then you can, you know, they're coated fully in cinnamon sugar. So that gives it a doughnut-like quality. Is it a doughnut? No. But I think it's a, I think it's a good second thing. And also particularly nice if you don't own a baked doughnut pan. Like maybe you don't wanna have, like, you know, you don't wanna get a custom pan just for baked doughnuts. I think doughnut muffin is great. Put that recipe in the show notes.

- I think the doughnut muffin is emulating doughnuts perhaps better than some other baked doughnuts do, because it's giving you that textural element on the outside. And that's what you're going to forego if you decide to bake your cake doughnuts instead of fry them. You're never gonna get that, you know, kind of crispy textural contrast in a baked doughnut that you get in a fried.

- Right, right, right. Yeah.

- So, you know, you make your choice.

- Yeah, you make your choice.

- You know, you make your choice, and you have to live with them, you know?

- Okay, well, in the interim, I'm gonna share an opinion with you.

- Well, first, don't cut me out. I had to do my, I gotta set you up.

- Okay, all right, set me up.

- Every episode we like to talk to Jessica and see what wildly surprising and full-throated opinions are in her head. Although, I gotta say these are becoming less and less surprising. Like, we're now expecting them from you, you know?

- Well, you know me so well now.

- It's a segment we lovingly call "Jess-opinions." And Jessica is dying to give her doughnut Jess-opinion, which is?

- Well, I think there is one thing that you should do whatever doughnut shop you go into, like there, which is that you should always order an old-fashioned.

- Oh, okay.

- Because I think an old-fashioned doughnut is like the barometer by which I measure a doughnut shop.

- Nice.

- Like, I just feel like it's the simplest, but it tells you a lot about like, you know, how well are they frying things? Like is the oil fresh, like is the temperature right? Like, you know, I mean, I think it's stripped away, right? Like anything's gonna taste pretty good if it's covered in sugary glaze, or like those floor sweepings or stuffed with jelly, or like with pastry cream inside of it and dunked in chocolate. Like that sort of obscures. But if you just have an old-fashioned doughnut, nowhere to hide.

- Huh. Okay.

- So I always will get one.

- But an old-fashioned doughnut is glazed though.

- No, not always, David. Sometimes.

- But are you specifically talking about plain old-fashioned doughnut?

- Yeah.

- So you just want a craggy-

- I do.

- Unglazed.

- Yep.

- Not rolled in sugar. Just a plain-

- Just a plain-

- Just a plain ass doughnut.

- Yeah, just a plain ass doughnut.

- You really are from New England, you've got that New England like-

- I do.

- You know?

- People are like, "Is she 40? Is she a hundred?" We don't know. We can't tell." But I think it's worth doing. Like even if you think you're gonna get other doughnuts, like I will often get other doughnuts, but I will always get an old-fashioned.

- So wait, so do you go to a doughnut shop and you're like, no wait, your family wants, you're like, oh hold on, I gotta order, like gotta see if this doughnut place is worth it?

- No.

- You order this.

- No, I mean, we'll just order all.

- You order all of them.

- We'll always order.

- Okay, got it.

- I also think, this is less of an opinion, but I'm just gonna add it on here, that the best time to eat doughnuts is actually for dessert.

- Oh God. No, no. Don't gimme that.

- I do, I mean, I like sweet things in the morning, but they are cake.

- You know, these people who are like, who are like, "Oh, I don't like a sugary breakfast." I'm like, "Get over it." You know? You know what they eat in Europe, you know what they eat in Italy? Everywhere. It's so many places around the world like a sugary breakfast.

- Yeah.

- And I'm one of 'em.

- You're one of 'em.

- I'm one of the countries in this world that loves a sugary breakfast.

- Can't do that to yourself.

- I support a doughnut first thing in the morning. Why not crash out immediately, you know?

- Yeah.

- Why wait till the end of the day?

- Why wait? Why wait?

- Yeah, I like to wake up and go right back to bed.

- All right, we did it. Here we are.

- So are you baking doughnuts at home this week?

- No, I'm not gonna bake doughnuts this week. I am going to, what am I gonna do? I'm gonna, so we're working, believe it or not, I mean, we're talking about our pizza book, which just came out, and yet we are working on another book, a baking book that will come out in the fall of 2027, and-

- Actually, 'cause there's some room on the shelf.

- There's some room on the shelf. And there has been lots of exciting development. But one of the recipes that we started developing for that book, we decided actually was not gonna go in the book, but it was such a good recipe that we were gonna put it on the site right away. And it's for these Cream Cheese Chocolate Chip Cookies.

- It's wild.

- I know what these people are thinking.

- Wild.

- Like, dude, does the world need another chocolate chip cookie recipe?

- I was thinking, does the world need another cream cheese cookie?

- But these are really quite distinctive. They're very rich. They're just, they're a really great chocolate chip cookie. And if you're a person that likes chocolate chip cookies, the way that I like them, which is that I always want to try, you know, a new one, this is one worth trying. Sarah Jampel developed this recipe. And spoiler, not spoiler, but it is not the chocolate chip cookie that is going in our new book. That one is even more groundbreaking.

- Yes, that one's-

- But this one-

- That one's truly, truly mind-blowing.

- But in the interim, we give you this little teaser of these Cream Cheese Chocolate Chip Cookies that are really very good, so.

- It's not that wild to have cream cheese in a cookie. I mean, I think rugelach has cream cheese in the dough and you can have chocolate rugelach. So that's a, I like that combination, that kind of tangy dairy-

- Tangy and tender. Yeah.

- Yeah. With chocolate. Two fermented, is cream cheese fermented?

- No.

- No. Cultured.

- Cultured. Yeah.

- Sounds a little bit fermented. Just a it's a tiny bit. So chocolate's fermented product. I think there's a synergy there. I've always liked chocolate with yogurt.

- Oh, interesting.

- There's a fermented sisterhood there.

- Yeah, the fermented sisterhood.

- The fermented sisterhood. Anyway, so this is not, I mean, it sounds kind of weird, but actually I think I can see how it would be congruous.

- Yeah, I want people to give 'em a shot, you know?

- Yeah. Nice. Well, I'm also not making doughnuts, but I'm making something close because we've been talking Jelly Doughnut Cake. You just said you think jelly, you think doughnuts are good for dessert. I wholeheartedly disagree with that. But speaking of Sarah Jampel, she did develop a cake based on a jelly doughnut, and it is really charming and really good cake. Again, it's got that nutmeg in it, which like that doughnut muffin we talked about earlier, that's kind of what gives it that je ne sais quoi of a doughnut. And it's got a ripple of jam through it, so giving you that-

- And crucially, it is baked in a sugar-dusted pan so you get like that sugary crust on the outside. And then, you didn't even mention the best part about that cake.

- What?

- The jelly buttons.

- I don't do that.

- Oh, you don't?

- That's too much work. But you, yeah, if you wanna do some piping, you can pipe a little jelly button on every, like, all around, so everyone gets one.

- On every slice.

- Yeah, so then it really looks like a jelly doughnut.

- I'm no fuss, you know?

- Oh really?

- Yeah.

- Yeah, those are both, those are both good recipes so hopefully people will try those, in addition.

- To all the doughnuts on our site.

- I mean, yeah, all the doughnuts on our site, just, and get over your fear of frying. We're here for you. If you have questions-

- We also have a good YouTube video of Claire Saffitz.

- We have a great YouTube video-

- Did a Sour Cream Doughnut walkthrough on our site. And because she's Claire, she went deep. I think that video is like 40 minutes long.

- Yeah.

- It's basically like a masterclass on doughnuts. So if we didn't, you know, get you all the way convinced, watch that video on our YouTube channel, that'll put you there.

- Yeah. Totally. As ever, we appreciate everyone tuning in and listening to us here on "Things Bakers Know."

- Remember to like and subscribe on Apple Podcast, YouTube, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts so you know when the next episode and the next season drops.

- Leave us a review, and specifically, leave us the name of your favorite, you know, small town doughnut shop or big town doughnut shop. I wanna know. I like to just keep a list.

- Yeah, go to our Substack, actually, and leave a comment there. We'll have a post. We have a new post up now all about doughnuts. So put that in the notes. Let's get a debate started.

- Yeah let's get a list going. That's what we need.

- Yeah, and folks, while you're doing all that, just remember always, especially when you're frying, follow the recipe. "Things Bakers Know" is hosted and executive produced by me, David Tamarkin.

- And me, Jessica Battilana.

- Rossi Anastopoulo is our senior producer. Chad Chenail is our producer, and Marcus Bagala is our engineer. Original music by Megan and Marcus Bagala.

- And what a treat it was to have Fany Gerson talk doughnuts with us. Fany of course, is the owner of Fan-Fan Doughnuts in New York City. She is also the author of many cookbooks and just a buddy of ours. And she is also starred in quite a few of our videos on our YouTube channel.

- "Things Bakers Know" is a King Arthur Baking Company podcast. This episode is brought to you by a new collaboration between King Arthur and Supernatural. Supernatural, of course, is the maker of America's brightest dye-free sprinkles. And we are putting those sprinkles in our new Confetti Cake Mix and Confetti Sugar Cookie Mix. Let me tell you something, I made the cake and I made it into an ice cream cake. It was gorgeous, it was celebratory. It was like my birthday, but it wasn't even my birthday. Find both mixes at Target, target.com and of course, at kingarthurbaking.com.