Baking with Kids: Fun or Chaos? featuring Samantha Seneviratne

Episode Transcript

Jessica: This season is brought to you by Plugra butter, a premium European-style butter made using a slow churn process. Look for Plugra wherever fine butters are sold.  

David: I'm nervous and excited. Let's see.  

Jessica: I hope we don't get stumped by the under 10 set 

From King Arthur Baking Company. This is Things Bakers Know. I'm Jessica Battilana, King Arthur's Staff Editor.  

David: And I'm David Tamarkin, King Arthur's Editorial Director.  

Jessica: David, I feel like today's episode is gonna be hard for you. And not only because you are not a parent, but also because I get the sense from you that you find baking with kids to be, I don't know, sort of stressful? 

David: Rude. But true. 

Well, I have, I have some great memories of baking with my, particularly with my niece Ella. When she was little, we made a cherry clafoutis together. And then she was maybe —  

Jessica: Ooh, la la.  

David: Yeah, it, it was maybe a little ambitious.  

Jessica: And did you leave the pits of the cherries?  

David: No. Is that a thing?  

Jessica: Yeah, it's, the traditional French recipes are unpitted cherries. 'Cause they think that the, you know, cherry noyaux contributes a certain je ne sais quoi to the clafoutis.  

David: Uh, je ne sais choking hazaed.  

Jessica: Choking. Yeah. Uh, I know you're a safety first baker. So I was like, wow. That's what you chose to bake with your niece?  

David: Um, I think actually it was a blueberry clafoutis actually. But she's very young and I don't know, maybe she didn't like the experience because at some point, like before we could serve the dessert, she threw the cherry clafoutis off the counter and it smashed on the floor. Yeah, I mean she, it was an accident.  

Jessica: Oh, sure. Sure it was.  

David: I don't know.  

Jessica: Well, this is getting right to the heart of this, like this episode is about baking with children. I feel like, you know, it's like the warning that they give you on the news stories. They're like, there is disturbing content ahead. So like this is an episode about baking with children. For a lot of people, the hardest part about baking with kids is this like the chaos. So I have two children, and they're not little children anymore. I have a 14-year-old and a 12-year-old, and for the longest time I had actually no interest at all in baking with them because they're both disasters, you know? 

Like they were like minorly interested. But I did nothing to like foster this because I was like, you're messy, you're slow. You like lick everything, you know? I think I was sort of missing like perhaps the point of the exercise, which is not like producing a perfect baked good, but like doing this thing together. 

So then about a year and a half ago I started working on the manuscript for this kid's book for us, Sweet & Salty. And I was like, I need to adjust my attitude, right? Like, I need to let — 

David: You needed to gain some expertise in the field. 

Jessica: I need to gain, of baking with, with kids. And I felt like I needed to sort of like walk the talk, right? 

Where I'm like, I really believe that teaching kids to bake and, you know, allowing kids to bake is a really important thing. And yet at the same time I was like, not in my kitchen though, buddy. So I had to adjust my, my mindset. And, and so my, my 14-year-old, not still, not super interested in baking. 

But my 12-year-old, who was like 10 and 11 when I was working on the book, got very into it, and I just sort of had to like, you know, kind of chill out a little bit about like, how did you get cocoa powder, like in every single drawer? Like when you were making those brownies, like how is that possible? 

Like how did, like why is there always an egg that ends up on the floor? You know, the, just like the stuff like that. But he's very into it, which is heartwarming. And he told me the other day he was making, something that he's really gotten into making are the, we have these quesadilla toad in holes in the kid's book. 

So it's a cheese quesadilla with a hole in the center that you crack an egg into. So he has been making these, and I have made probably, I would say conservatively a thousand toad in a holes for my children over the last 14 years.   

David: It's a great, I mean, it's one of the perfect foods. 

Jessica: And so he was it, you know, making it for himself for the first time, which is great. And I was like real puffed up about it, you know? And then he was like, yeah, it's great. I learned how to make these on TikTok. What? And not King Arthur's TikTok, just like, I don't even, they don't even have TikTok, I didn't think. 

But um, somehow he has found a way and he's convinced now that like it is in fact TikTok that has taught him how to bake and cook.  

David: Oh, exactly. Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's not, it's not the osmosis.  

Jessica: No, but that's just, that's life, this generation, that's parenting life.  

David: That’s being raised on TikTok. It's truly, um, I gotta say, the stories you've told about your sons as he's written the book have been so cute and so, I don't know. 

This is sort of heartwarming in a way and really gave me a confidence that this book was gonna work, you know?  

Jessica: Yeah. I, I was actually, you know, it's exciting because they had sort of watched the process and baked along with me as I was working on the book, but then, you know, you get the first real copy of the book. 

And the first thing he wanted to make were the papusas. So the book is split in half, like half sweet recipes, half salty recipes as the name suggests. And I was so surprised 'cause I thought he was gonna go right for like the frosted, sprinkled, whatever. But we made papusas together. He was so excited about like, contributing this thing to the meal. 

Like he was so proud of it. That's right. He was so into it and he kept being like, I made, you know, like I made this thing. And I think that's actually a, a one of the distinguishing factors between kids baking and adults baking, you know, an adult bake something for dinner party and they're all like, oh, sorry, it's not perfect. 

Or like, I hope you like apples or like, I might have over baked a little bit. And kids are like, I made this thing, this thing is awesome. Look at how great I am. It's delicious. You know, they're like going around from plate to plate, like, go, do you want another slice? Like, it's so sweet. 

And I was like, there's something for, for adults to learn here that like just, you know, like such confidence and such pride in it.  

David: Totally. Yeah. When do we learn self-deprecation? I mean, I feel like I came out of the womb making jokes about myself, but I love that I, yeah, we could all totally, we should all learn from that. 

And I also just wanna say in defense of your son that I, a man in his forties, when I bake, after I bake, I find piles of spices in every drawer as well. And I have no idea, no idea how they got there.  

Jessica: Who knows what happens? You're in a fugue state. And also just seeing kids cook and bake, I think is great for a lot of reasons. 

Like I think people are always like, oh, baking's a great way to teach math and teach chemistry, and like, yeah. But I think there is this effort to like sort of legitimize kids baking for like a learning opportunity. But I think like we're sort of missing the point of what they're actually learning through that. 

And I think, yeah, sure they can like do some fractions when they are measuring things and yes, they can like learn how to use a skill. Like all of those are, are good skills. But I think there's that sort of like intangible, it's like that feeling that you get when you bake something for somebody that you care about and kids pick that up really quickly, like that is a good feeling. 

And so like the caring for other people piece, I think gets sort of lost in the, like, why teach kids to bake? But actually I think that's sort of like, that's, that's the thing, right? If you can tolerate the mess and the hassle of baking and you can let them like do it on their own, like, you're giving them this huge gift, which then, you know, ideally ends up with like them baking you something really tasty.  

David: Yeah, right. It comes back to you. I think that, I can't believe how much I'm resonating with what you said 'cause it's so earnest and I, and I usually reject anything earnest.  

Jessica: I know. It's, I know it's out of character for me too. 

David: but I, but it really is true. 

I mean, like, I, I think you're so right. Like I have three, three nephews and two nieces, and when I think about what I want them, what I want for them in their lives as they become adults, I can list a few things. You know, I want them to be, I want them to be good readers, right? I want them to, to understand the power of literature, and I want them to be artists, some of them all to be artists, starving artists. I’m always like, you're into science? No, no, no. Go, go, go do the arts. But I want that they cook and that they bake, and that they understand the value of that. The power of cooking for others, but also cooking for yourself too. And something that I've thought about a lot in my career and and done research on is how cooking is on, on the decline. 

It's just a good skill to have, you know, to be able to bake for yourself, to know how to do this, but also it, it, it enriches your life. And like you said, it enriches the life of everybody around you, particularly your gay uncle who doesn't have kids and is gonna need to be fed when he's 80.  

Jessica: So, I mean, I feel like when I was first starting to bake, I was baking this brownie recipe from Seventeen Magazine, which I probably got from a babysitter. 

So I, I baked these brownies and I probably did like every single error known to humankind. Like I would forget the eggs. I would like double the salt. But you know, I tell you what, like you only do them once. And I think that is actually for the parents and caregivers out there who are listening to this, who are, who are like me, that are just like the idea of relinquishing control and your kitchen feels very uncomfortable. Like it, that is the whole thing.  

David: Mm-hmm.  

Jessica: I think we totally underestimate, you know, how competent kids can be. If you want to inspire future bakers, like you kind of have to let them do it. Like they're gonna make mistakes. They're gonna burn their fingers, they're gonna lick the bowl, they're gonna make a mess. 

But you're running, you're sort of running the long game, right? Like, and you know, and I'm not the only person that feels this way. Like in today's episode, you know, I talked to lots of other parent bakers putting this together, and we have special guest Sam Seneviratne, a writer for the New York Times, cookbook author, also a parent, joining us to talk about baking with kids 'cause she is a total pro. And then we also have, I'm really excited about this, all of our questions today are actually from kids. We put out a call to the children to ask us. 

David: Ff America. The Children of America.  

Jessica: The Children of America. So lots more to get into here. But first up, I'm gonna talk to Sam a little bit about her experience baking with kids.  

David: I love Sam. Sam is an old college classmate of mine. Fun fact. And I, I, we bake her recipes in my house all the time. She's such a great recipe developer, such a great writer. So lovely to talk to. I can't wait to hear this conversation. 

Jessica: Samantha is a baker, food stylist, and recipe developer and the author of four cookbooks, including her latest Bake Smart, a baking book that is cleverly organized by ingredient and includes such bangers as Maple Tahini Chocolate Skillet Cake, recipe link in the show notes. I first got to know Sam through a show she hosted on Food 52 called Cook and a Half, where she cooked with her young son Artie, and demonstrated what I can only call an enviable amount of patience. 

So she's joining me now to talk about the highs and lows of baking with children. Sam, welcome to Things Bakers Know. You have a son. How old is he now?  

Sam: He is eight. He just turned eight this summer.  

Jessica: Okay. Wow. Okay. How old was he when you started doing the Cook and a Half series on Food52? 

Sam: He was really little. I wanna say he was like four. Maybe. He was little. 

Jessica: And I'm sure there are a lot of parents that are listening to this that are thinking like, I want my kid to have this skill. And yet, and yet, Sam, like, how do I do this without like, totally like losing my marbles?  

Sam: That's a great question. I have lost my marbles many times, so don't worry if you do. 

When we set aside a time to bake, it's not like a weeknight, we don't have anything else to do. You can't have any time parameters or mess parameters. You know, it's like you have to decide that this is what we're doing. And it's going to be a disaster, at least with us, you know? Yeah. Like there's gonna be flour everywhere and it's like, oh, Saturday we'll do a baking project together, and that's what we'll do. 

But it's not just anytime you want to get in the kitchen and make a mess.  

Jessica: Right. For parents that are interested, like who wanna get their kids into baking, do you have, you know, recipes or types of recipes that you recommend that they start with? Like, do you think they should start with mixes?  

Sam: I do not think mixes are necessary. Frankly, um, because what's a mix? It's just the dry ingredients measured for you. As long as you have the ingredients in your house, I don't think mixes actually give you that much more convenience. If you're making like an easy one bowl cake or like a, you know, a simple brownie or blondie or something like that. 

And that's where I would start with, with kids. Those are the things that Arthur really likes to bake because it's like instant gratification, low effort, high reward. Yeah, you don't need that much. So as far as recipes go, they like those recipes that have like limited ingredients. One pan. You know, not many bells and whistles just so that you can eat the thing fast. 

Jessica: Yeah. I mean, this is probably not a fair question 'cause I think kids are so different. Like the spectrum of ability is so different, but like do you have a sense of like, is there a great age to get kids started baking and cooking?  

Sam: I mean, as soon as they want to? Yeah, I think as early and as soon as they want to. 

Obviously it's gonna be a different experience with a 3-year-old versus a 10-year-old. But yeah, you know, I think building an interest, it starts young. I mean, and I'm lucky because I think my kiddo wanted to do it because he saw me doing it and just wanted, that's it, to be with me. So there's that.  

Jessica: What do you think, I mean we've talked around this a little bit, but like what do you think are the sort of like best and worst things about baking with kids. 

Sam: Oh my God. Well, and like all the hard things are coming to my mind first. Yeah. But let's put, I'm gonna put a positive spin on it first. He's pretty picky now. Mm-hmm. He's in a real picky phase. So I think, I'm trying to think about like, how are we gonna address that moving forward? 

And I think cooking and baking together is, might help us. Like I started getting him to like look through cookbooks and say, what do you want for dinner this week? Yeah. Then I would make it. 'cause I was like, if you picked it, I'll make it and then we'll it and you'll try it. And that worked pretty well. 

But I think the next step of that is going through cookbooks, having him pick stuff that looks good. And then we make it together.  

Jessica: Yeah, I think that's true. I also appreciate that you call it a picky phase because I think hopeful, you know, there are a lot of people that are like, oh, I have a picky eater, you know? Like this label on your kid and it's like there are some times that like, I don't know, as adults you go through a phase where you're like, all I wanna eat this, or there's definitely times that I'm like, you know what? I would like the ice cream and I don't really feel like my dinner. Like, I think all the things that kids do that we're like wring your hands about are like honestly things that adults do too. 

And I just try not to give it too much fuel, like if my kid, like they're, both of them are, are now and always were like decent eaters. And then we were at this restaurant a couple weeks ago and they had a crispy rice salad. Which is the lowest hanging fruit, like it's fried rice. And he like refused to even take like a mouse bite of it. And I was like, ah, you know, like so frustrated by it. And then I was like, why do, just because he doesn't wanna do this in this moment does not forever mark him, you know? And so I think you, you have the right thought about this. It's like you just keep showing up with the stuff. 

Sam: You're totally right that sometimes all I want is like ice cream and I indulge in that. Mm-hmm. Like I just try to listen to my body. And so that's also what I'm trying to teach my kid too, is like you have cues that you should listen to and if you don't wanna finish everything, that's okay.  

Jessica: I think that's smart. 

And I think I remember some, like when my kids were younger, your kid's age, like somebody telling me that like you have to look at what they're eating over a week. You know, like not over a day because like that's, you know, always a little bit like who knows, you know? But if you sort of are looking at with a slightly broader lens, I do think it shakes out. Hopefully.  

Sam: No, no. We'll see, I dunno. It's only so like, yeah, figure.  

Jessica: We're gonna call you back in four years and just like, and be like, oh no. Get an update. Yeah. Does Arthur have things he wants to bake with you? Is there anything on the list that you guys are — 

Sam: Oh, good question. We, we do watch a lot of the like baking competition shows. 

Oh, and cake and stuff like that. And so he's always wanting to make some over the top, you know, cake. Like he was really into making a cake with a swimming pool in it. I mean, okay, if you really want to, you can.  

Jessica: But did you do it? Did you make the swimming pool?  

Sam: No, we did actually, because I was on a job as a judge of a baking show, and somebody had made like a big block of blue gelatin. So I took it home and then we were, we did it 'cause I was like, oh, I, I have the swimming pool already done, so. 

Jessica: So you like cut, did you like cut out like some of the cake and put the gel ... ? Oh wow. Wow. I mean that sounds pretty cool.  

Sam: It was a while ago, but, um. It wasn't delicious. I mean, you don't want to eat that. 

Jessica: I don't know. You seem like fun mom. I think like you say, you're Type A, but actually fun mom is coming out now. Well, Sam, thank you for making time to talk to us today. I, um, I feel like you and I have have a lot more to say about what it is like to raise children, to bake with children, to cook with children. 

Well, I could talk about it forever. I know and, uh, I think, you know, seeing you on the show with your son was totally an inspiration to me. And we are big fans of your work here at King Arthur and we do have a few of your recipes, the Sunken Berry Almond Cake and the Maple Tahini Skillet Cake from your last book, Bake Smart, are both on the King Arthur website. 

So anyway, we'll put the links to both of those recipes in the show notes. And a link to your website where people can see all of the cookbooks that you've written and maybe watch some episodes of you. It must be sweet now that your kid's older too. You just to have like that archive footage of like the tiny guy.  

Sam: I, it's so much stuff that you forget and then you watch and it's really, really sweet. 

Jessica: I feel excited for people who haven't seen them before because like they're a very sweet thing to watch and I think hopefully will inspire some parents. Thanks Sam. Appreciate you.  

Sam: Well you, it was a pleasure. 

Jessica: Got a kid in your life? Well, this episode is brought to you by our brand new kids’ naking book, Sweet & Salty. This is a cookbook designed for young bakers. It's full of fun, easy recipes, but also foundational lessons and techniques to encourage the young baker in your life to level up their skills. I had so much fun working on this one, and yes, I did make my kids help, although they didn't wash a single dish. 

David: What's the point of even having kids if they don't wash dishes? There is a chocolate peanut butter tart in this book that has the brilliant addition of corn flakes and it ends up making each bite like crunchy and a little salty. Look, that is not just for kids, that's for adults. So I'm thrilled that this book is coming out into the world. 

Jessica: You can find Sweet & Salty wherever books are sold or on our website, kingarthurbaking.com.  

It's time for our next segment, Ask The Bakers. For Ask the Bakers, we want to hear from you. If you have a baking question for us, head to kingarthurbaking.com/podcast to record a voice message, and we may end up using it on the show. That's kingarthurbaking.com/podcast.  

David: And of course, if you have a baking question that simply cannot wait, you could always reach out to our Baker's Hotline via phone, email, or online chat. Just go to kingarthurbaking.com/bakers-hotline. That's bakers dash hotline. Or call us at (855) 371-2253. That's 2 2 5 3 as in BAKE. 

Jessica: We've got questions today and they're better than the usual questions, I think, because they're all questions from kid bakers, which I think is gonna be especially fun.  

David: It's better 'cause hopefully they'll be easier so that, or maybe they're gonna be much harder. I don't know. I'm nervous and excited. Let's see. 

Jessica: I, I hope we don't get stumped by, I'm terrified, the under 10 set.  

Caller: Hi, my name is Caroline and, and I'm five years old. And what, and I, and this is my question. Um, what do we, what do we do to make muffins puff up?  

Jessica: So cute. Five years old. See, that's what I'm talking about. Already, already getting interested in it. I don't know, maybe their parent forced them to record this. Maybe the parent’s wondering, they're too embarrassed to ask. The parent’s like, I'm a terrible baker. Ask this question. Um, so this is a good question and it's a good fundamental question for beginner bakers. Like, why do things puff up in the oven? 

Right? What makes baked goods go from batter to a beautifully risen, finished thing? So in muffins, in most cases, you're gonna use a chemical leavener. So that's either baking soda, baking powder, or sometimes both of them together. Do you wanna talk a little bit about the difference between baking soda and baking powder and why they work? 

David: Sure. And it is really an important lesson to learn. I think about this actually every time I reach for baking powder or baking soda, just to make sure I'm reaching for the right one, because if you don't, it can mess up your. Baking soda is a chemical leavener that reacts to acid, and when you combine baking soda with an acid, it creates a chemical reaction of carbon dioxide, which gives the baked goods a lift. 

The important thing to know is that baking powder already has baking soda in it. Right? And it's, baking powder is baking soda plus an acid. You have a saying for this?  

Jessica: Oh, I do. Yeah, yeah. Powder for puff, soda for spread.  

David: Right. And if you have a recipe that has a lot of acid in it already, oftentimes you'll just see baking soda. 

So I'm always looking for where's the acid in the recipe? And if it's not there, then I know that we, I need to use baking powder because I need that. Put that acid in there when, acid can be sneaky in places. Yeah, right.  

Jessica: I was gonna say, when you're, when you're talking about acid for a kid baker out there, you know, you might thinking, be thinking like, okay, what are things that are, are acidic? Okay, like lemon juice, vinegar. 

Yeah. And those are examples. But also there's other things like that you might not think of as acidic that actually, when combined with baking soda will give you that same fizzy effervescence, that carbon dioxide, and those include buttermilk, yogurt, molasses. I do think — 

David: Brown sugar because brown sugar, 'cause there's molasses. 

Jessica: I feel like if you are a baker starting out, the most important thing is that you don't wanna mix and match. Like if a recipe calls for baking powder, you cannot just swap in baking soda. So you wanna make sure that you're reading the recipe all the way through. Then you're going to the pantry and getting the correct one because they do perform really differently. 

You wanna pay particular attention to that. This poor five-year-old's like I've already gone back to playing. So yeah, that's why muffins puff. Let's hear our next listener question.  

Caller: When our family makes banana bread, the middle is sometimes raw and the sides are brown. How can we change the middle so that it's not raw? 

Jessica: Oh, this has happened to me before. I think sometimes banana bread is like a big liar, you know? Looks done.  

David: Mm-hmm.  

Jessica: You are like, oh, so beautifully brown on the outside and then you like, you cool it and the first slices are fine, and then you get to like the, the meat of it and it's like pudding. Ugh.  

David: Gross.   

Jessica: Yeah. That has definitely happened to me. Yeah.   

David: So it's a thick batter. It requires a, a strong bake.  

Jessica: Yeah. And that, it has a very long bake time. Like a lot of banana breads are like 55 minutes to an hour or an hour plus. So we know banana bread has a fair amount of sugar in it, like bananas have a lot of sugar in it, and then you're adding sugar, you know, brown sugar or granulated sugar. 

So that means it's gonna brown in the oven pretty quickly, right? Like the exterior, anything that's exposed to the direct heat is gonna start to take on color pretty fast. So that's why you could look at it from the outside and say like, oh, it's beautifully browned. Below the brown surface, it has not baked all the way through. 

So when I'm baking my banana bread, I'll bake it part of the way and it'll start to get brown. And then I will cover my loaf pan, like loosely tent it with some aluminum foil. Just to protect the top from browning more and give the center time to sort of catch up. So that's one tip that I think is helpful. 

David: I think that's a great tip. The other thing that I think is really notable here is the color of the pan. 'Cause if you have, if you're using a dark pan that's going to bake the sides of your banana bread or any loaf cake, you're baking more quickly than a lighter colored pan. So if you're having this problem, try switching to a lighter colored pan and you may find that you're able to get a fuller bake through the middle without the sides browning as much. 

You could also temp on the lighter colored pan and use both these tips at the same time. Um, I think for banana bread, like just a skewer or a knife in the middle is a pretty good indication. But if you want to be super nerdy about it, which I know kids are just dying to be nerdy. That's all they wanna be, right? You can take the temperature and the temperature you're looking for is 200, 205 degrees.  

Jessica: And so when you're talking about taking the temperature, you would take a digital thermometer and you would stick it right into the center of the — 

David: You take it to the doctor, and the doctor says, open, you know? 

Uh. Yeah, you take an instant read digital thermometer. You carefully take the banana of bread out the oven, it's gonna be hot. Use your oven mitts, stick the thermometer in the middle of the cake about halfway down. It's kind of fun because you can notice on the digital read 'cause it, 'cause it responds so quickly as the probe is going into the cake, it'll change temperature. 

But you wanna kind of find the lowest temperature because, and that's gonna be the very middle of the cake. The top of the cake's gonna be a higher temperature. The bottom's gonna be a higher temperature. If you accidentally put it all the way down and you hit the pan, it's gonna shoot up. 

You know, you're gonna be like, oh my cake's 250 degrees. So try to find the middle where it's at the lowest, and judge from there. And you're looking for around 200, 205 degrees.  

Jessica: And you know, I think obviously the goal is always to bake your baked goods fully, but as I said at the start of this question, like I have encountered a problem where I get to the center and it's just like a little gooier than I want, and then I just toast those slices in a pan. 

I just griddle 'em up in some salted butter, turning it like a pancake, which is a good tip anyway, even if it, your banana bread is fully baked, but especially good if you like have a little bit of, you know, sort of wetness in the center. So not all is lost if it's just like slightly under baked. 

Let's go to our next question.  

Caller: My mom's birthday is coming up, but she is gluten-free. What do we make for her?  

David: Actually, this is a good question for you, Jessica, because do you want your kids to make something for you for your birthday? What do you like to have made for you on your birthday?  

Jessica: Oh, this is like a real callback to our birthday cake episode. 

David: Oh, that's right. Right. You usually, you like a homemade cake no matter what, how it turns out. 

Jessica: I do. I mean, I will say my children have never offered or attempted to make me a birthday cake and I feel fine about it, but last week, you know, was my wife's birthday and I made the cake, and then my son and a friend decorated the cake, in the most, like moreish, I, I sent you a photo.  

David: I was gorgeous.  

Jessica: I mean, they loved, it just, it was extra. There was like, they wanted to pipe, you know, so they got into that. I think kids are really into decorating, right? So there was like two colors of frosting and then like so many sprinkles and also some flowers, and then some candles. 

And the whole thing was like just so extra. It is a luminescent cake and I had to like sit on my hands while they did it 'cause it was all so chaotic and there's still like sprinkles in the floorboards and everywhere else. But anyway, I think it is entirely possible to make a very good gluten-free cake. 

In fact, I think cakes take, well, like there are some things that are harder to make gluten-free. Like, you know, I think there are challenges to making good gluten-free bread, which we'll talk about, you know, later in this season. But cakes actually are not that hard to make gluten-free, but you can just use gluten-free flour, like our measure for measure and that you can use to make almost any cake gluten-free. 

David: There's also gluten-free cake mixes now out there. One of our mixes, it's a confetti cake, so it's like perfect for a birthday.  

Jessica: Totally, totally. So I think you can actually make a very good gluten-free cake just by swapping gluten-free flour for all-purpose flour and following a good gluten-free cake recipe. 

Yep. So that's if you have your heart set on cake, I think that's a good path forward. Also, you know, we have a recipe in Sweet & Salty, the new kids book, for these giant, they're like, you know, like baseball size meringues that then we dust with fruit powder. They're, they're really pretty, they're inspired by like the meringues that Ottolenghi sells at their cafes in London. 

But you could also just make them like a little bit bigger and then serve them with like whipped cream and berries would be a really nice gluten-free thing to do. I think the meringues are fun to make too. Like it's kind of magic to see egg whites and sugar transform into this amazing thing. 

David: Um, totally. Or you could even make like them bigger still and stack two of them, you know, and do a meringue cake, which would be really fun too. Really fun.  

Jessica: Yeah. I mean, there's always a hot fudge sundae, which yes, you know, honestly, is it great? Or an ice cream cake, you know, you could use gluten-free graham crackers or you know, store-bought gluten-free cookies to make a cookie crust and ice cream and hot fudge and whipped cream, and still have the opportunity for sprinkles so. 

David: You could use gluten-free graham crackers to make the s'mores rice krispies treats on our site.  

Jessica: Yeah. That would be amazing. In answering this question, I will say also, I feel like we sort of buried the lede, which is it's very sweet that you're thinking about what to make your mom for her birthday and to think about what she might like. 

So you seem like a good kid. You should get more allowance.  

David: We should pay you. Yeah. Checks in the mail.  

Jessica: Checks in the mail.  

David: Thanks for the question, kid. 

Every episode, we like to check in with Jessica to see what wildly surprising and full-throated opinions are in her head. A segment we lovingly call Jess-opinions. Jessica, I cannot wait to hear, what is your kid-centered Jess-opinion this week?  

Jessica: Man, I have many that to choose from, but I think one of the things that's like ruining everything are kids menus. 

David: Ruining everything.  

Jessica: Yeah, they're ruining — 

David: Okay. That's the problem with this country: kids menus. 

Jessica: Well, hear me out. So my kids have gone to restaurants since they were little. They still go to restaurants with me and like, I hate that there's not like a sweet spot between ordering a $40 entree for a kid, but it's always like chicken tenders. Buttered noodles. Spaghetti with red sauce. And I think these kids' menus play into this idea of like, oh, all kids are gonna want to eat is macaroni cheese, chicken nuggets, spaghetti, whatever. And it becomes like this sort of snake eating its tail. Right? And I just wish there was like a little bit more thought and care put into kids' menus. 

Because I think a lot of kids will try things. They don't want like a giant portion of it, but they wanted, we're sort of encouraging kids to become pickier eaters or they don't get to participate fully in the restaurant experience because the offerings for them are really disappointing.  

David: Yeah, I think that's a great point. 

Jessica: And you know, I say this from my experience. I worked as an elementary school lunch lady for a period of like three years when I lived in San Franscisco.  

David: One of my favorite facts about you.  

Jessica: I know it is a fun fact. And I would have parents call me and they'd say like, how did you get so and so to eat tofu curry with vegetables? 

And I was like, exposure, right? So like the more we're able to expose kids to good food, the more you know, I think they will seek it out, which is again, like a gift to them for their lives. There's like an opportunity, many opportunities in the kids' food space to just do something that's a little bit more thoughtful and dynamic. 

David: That's a great point, but listen. I was at Penn Station the other day about to get on a two hour train and I was in the Pret a Manger, this little sandwich shop in the station. And I was like, what can I get here? Like, I'm not gonna get anything that smells like a tuna sandwich or something. I'm not gonna get that and bring it on the train. 

Like I just was struggling. And then I saw, I was like, pret for kids. It was bread, cheese, mayonnaise, and I was like, that's it. And I was really happy with that, so. 

Jessica: That's funny. Um, what are you gonna bake this week, David?  

David: This week I'm working on my crackers because I, oh, I mean, crackers seem like they should be a simple thing to make, but I've struggled with them, to roll them out. 

They just get I like burned on the edges and I don't know, I'm just, I want to dial this in because I want to use my sourdough discard and there's an easiest sourdough cracker recipe I'm gonna start with.  

Jessica: I think that's great also, 'cause store-bought crackers are so expensive.  

David: How about you?  

Jessica: I'm going back to, you know, I'm going back to my fall routine. 

We're just hanging on by a thread. Like, kids aren't doing sports, they're just like, there's a lot happening and so,  

David: So it's time for croquembouche.  

Jessica: So it's, yeah, it's time for a croquembouche. It's time for, well it's time for Crispy Cheesy Pan Pizza is what it's time for. Which is, was our recipe of the year, you know, many years ago. 

But is pretty much a Friday night staple in our household. So I make the dough on Thursday, rests overnight, and then Friday afternoon I pull it out. It's baked in a cast iron skillet. Our kids love it. It's just a nice sort of like way to like reset at the end of every week and yeah. And so that's what I'll be doing every Friday from now until, I don't know, next May probably.  

David: It’s one of the best recipes that was ever developed. 

Jessica: If you haven't already made it, I feel excited for you to make it for the first time and it's kid friendly, and it's totally kid friendly. Kids love pizza. Anyway, as always, I appreciate all of our listeners out there. Thanks for tuning in and joining us here on Things Bakers Know. Next week we'll be back with an episode all about gluten-free bread. People have asked for it and we are delivering. It is possible to make gluten-free bread. We're gonna talk a lot about it. I'm excited about that one.  

David: I am too. And listen folks, remember, please like and subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, Amazon Music, or whatever niche indie platform you're using to listen to your podcast. More power to you. And we love a review.  

Jessica: Leave us a review while you're there. Love a review. Yeah, love a review. Share an episode with a friend.  

David: We'll see you here back next week. And in the meantime, kids, number one rule. Follow the recipe. 

Things Bakers Know is hosted and executive produced by me, David Tamarkin,  

Jessica: And me, Jessica Battilana.  

David: Rossi Anastopoulo is our senior producer, Chad Chenail is our producer, and Marcus Bagala is our engineer. 

Original music by Megan and Marcus Bagala.  

Jessica: This episode featured cookbook author Samantha Seneviratne. Thank you, Sam. You can learn more about her work at samanthaseneviratne.com and we will link that in the show notes.  

David: Things Bakers Know is a King Arthur Baking Company podcast.