Apple Showdown: Pie vs. Cake, featuring Erin McDowell

Episode Transcript

- Hey bakers, before we get into the episode, I need to tell you something. You already know that King Arthur has a legendary baking school in Vermont and Washington state. Well, a few years ago, we launched a new way to take classes from our world-class educators. You can take these classes anytime, anywhere. It's called Baking School: On Demand, and guess what? "Things Bakers Know" listeners get a discount. Use code POD25 for 25% off your first order. That's P-O-D-2-5 for 25% off, if you can believe that. It's the deal of this century, but you gotta hurry, 'cause it expires on January 1st, 2027. Pick up a class for yourself or one of your friends or your dog at kingarthurbaking.com. Okay, now, let's get Jessica in here and start the episode.

- No, I like an apple pie.

- Well, I was about to ask you. Yeah, are you gonna take a side or not?

- No, I'm not going to take a side, 'cause I do like them both.

- Oh, you think you're better than me? From King Arthur Baking Company, this is "Things Bakers Know." I'm David Tamarkin, employee-owner at King Arthur Baking.

- And I'm Jessica Battilana, employee-owner at King Arthur Baking, and today, befitting the season, we're talking about apples. Of course, 'cause it's fall, and also, people are just obsessed with apples, but we wanted to overlay, like, a little competition onto this.

- Oh, yeah.

- I mean, I guess. So we were talking about two baking rivals, apple pie versus apple cake.

- Right, so it's gonna be an all Jess-opinions episode. I can feel it now.

- Yeah.

- It's in the air, but I want to stop you there. I want to gas you up a little. Before we get into-

- Great.

- Into Jess-opinions, it's actually not gassing you up, it's gassing at the state that reared you.

- Okay.

- And where you are often. Where we are right now, the state we're in right now.

- Yes.

- As listeners know, if they've been paying attention, I'm from the Midwest. I'm a big booster of the Midwest, constantly talking about how great Ohio is.

- Yep, a lot of Ohio pride.

- And in Ohio, we like to tell ourselves that we have good apples there, my mom particularly.

- Oh yeah.

- Every follower is on the phone with me, being like, "Well, you know we have great apples in Ohio."

- Okay.

- Which I used to think was true. And Ohio is one of the top 10 apple producers in the country.

- Okay.

- And I live in New York now.

- The Big Apple.

- The Big Apple, exactly, another famous, famous apple-producing state.

- Sure.

- And the apples there are fine, you know, they're okay, and I used to like them more 'cause I didn't know any better, but now, Jessica, after spending so much time in Vermont over the past five years, having spent so many falls in Vermont, and going to the markets here, even the basic grocery stores and getting bushels, bushels of apples for myself, I now know what a real apple is supposed to taste like. The Vermont apples and the New Hampshire apples, since we're right here on the border, are unreal. It's true.

- Case closed, Vermont apples are the best.

- Truly case closed. It's about the cold nights, right?

- I think so.

- You know, they bring out the best in apples. And so now, whenever fall hits, truly, I find myself, you know, carting apples back to New York. I have an obsession with Vermont apples. It did something to my brain, it sort of ruined me, and it especially ruined me for apples out of season, because I will now dabble

- Oh yeah.

- In New York State apples. If I'm in Ohio in the fall, sure, I'll eat an apple there, and no shade, they are good. An apple in season is a good thing, but these apples in March at the grocery store,

- No, yeah.

- An apple in January, I'm not doing it.

- It's interesting to think about. I mean, I think there's some fruits that we know are seasonal fruits. You know, we think about, like, your peaches, your strawberries, like, people, I think, still, even in this globalized world, they still are like, "Oh yeah, those are summer fruits."

- Right.

- But just because you can get them year round doesn't mean they're good year round, and this is now, like, this is the season. And so I understand why people, like, all the search traffic, okay, no, maybe not all, but a lot of the search traffic on our site flips.

- Like, end of August.

- Oh yeah.

- People are just, like, apple bakes.

- Apple bakes.

- Apple bakes, apple bakes.

- And you know, August is not the wrong time, honestly. Summer apples are a delicious thing. Early apples, you know, have you ever had those, like, these kind of small, summer apples? They're tart, they're crisp. I mean, do not discount the summer apple, but let's be very clear. A summer apple is a seasonal apple, right? It's an apple that is only... It's not one of these evergreen apples that you find in the grocery store.

- I also think part of it is what I like to call the Vermont mystique. When I lived in California for a million years, we would still go apple-picking. There are apples there. You know, there's interesting varieties of apples.

- Oh, really?

- But you'd go and it would be, like, hot out.

- Oh no.

- You know? And that is not the apple-picking experience I grew up with. It was like-

- Oh no.

- You go on a day, like a bluebird day, bluebird sky, little touch of crispness. You go in the morning, you're wearing your sweater, but by the time you get there, you're like, it's warm enough to peel it off.

- You need to be in your vest.

- Yeah, you need to be in your vest, so I think that's part of it.

- It needs to be vest weather.

- Yeah.

- Yes. Okay, I agree with you.

- And we've set the scene now. We're in our vests.

- We've set the scene. We're in our vests, it's fall, and just like you're talking about, I have so many positive associations with fall and apples. I think that has a lot to do with what you're talking about, perfect apple-picking weather, but also, of course, Thanksgiving apple pie, apple cake for Rosh Hashanah is a thing,

- Yup.

- And of course, the fall is sort of state fair time.

- Oh yeah, oh yeah.

- As I just mentioned, I grew up in Ohio,

- Apple cider, yeah.

- And witnessed so much horrific bobbing for apples in my childhood.

- You never bobbed for apples?

- No, even as a kid, I knew that was not okay.

- Well, A, I'm sure it, like, taps into your fear of germs.

- Absolutely. Yes, yes.

- Yeah, yeah.

- How far do you get your face into it?

- Sometimes you have to get your face really far 'cause you need, like, to hit the apple against, like, the side of the thing or the bottom of the vessel in order to, like-

- The bottom?

- To get, like, purchase on it with your teeth. It's also humiliating. It's like, there you are with your head in a bucket of water, you're like, drowning yourself. Like, it makes no sense.

- For an apple?

- For an apple.

- But you know what? These Vermont apples, maybe it's worth it? I don't know.

- Yeah. Well, you know, our producer really set this up, 'cause she was like, "I want you guys to choose a side, choose your fighter."

- She sure did.

- Apple pie or apple cake, and you and I were like,

- Yes.

- "We won't do it."

- You know what, I love both apple cake and apple pie.

- What are some of your favorite apple desserts?

- Okay, well, I like cake better. Am I being... She forced my hand. I do love an apple cake. I like any apple cake that's a crumb cake with a crumb topping,

- Okay, yeah.

- Or like, any apple coffee cake, but I also like a classic, like, apple Bundt cake, maybe a little glaze on it or something? One of my favorite apple cakes is from Claire Saffitz's first book, and the reason why I like it is because the apples are thinly sliced, but then you saute them in some butter and some sugar and you get them really soft before you incorporate them into the batter.

- You know, there's two approaches. Well, there's more than two approaches, but there's a spectrum of apple cakes, right? And some of them, as you describe, have you cooking the apples first, but others, which I like, because I'm extremely lazy, just have you chopping up, like, our Old-Fashioned Apple Cake with a Brown Sugar Frosting, which swept the nation last year when we were promoting it

- It sure did.

- As part of our fall 49 must-bake recipes. It was like, our top recipe to bake.

- Right.

- It has one gazillion, that's maybe a slight exaggeration, but it has hundreds of reviews. People love it, and that has you dicing apples into small dice and then folding them into the batter, and when you look at that, you're like, "This isn't gonna work."

- Exactly. I'm always a little bit scared about the, "Is this apple going to cook through?"

- I mean, I think the cake is sort of counting on the moisture coming out of those apples as part of the, like, you mix it together and you're like "There's barely enough batter." You let it sit five minutes and it loosens up, you know, as the apples start to release some of their moisture.

- And with pie, I feel like the risk of the apples not baking is a little lower. Correct me if you think I'm wrong here, but you can keep a pie going. You know, I don't usually worry about overbaking a pie. I feel like people chronically underbake their pies.

- Yes.

- I like a dark pie.

- Yes.

- I can keep cooking the pie until I know those apples are done, until I see the piping, right? The piping in the middle of the pie.

- I think you're right. I think far more people underbake their apple pies, which is a crime,

- Yeah.

- Because the dough, it's not raw, but it's not cooked enough. It's not like GBD, golden brown delicious. And then the filling is like the apples can still actually be hard, and also-

- It's the worst.

- Wet.

- It's hard, it's wet, it's hot, it's weird. I mean, that's weird.

- Are we both on team cake?

- Weird.

- No, I like an apple pie.

- Well, I was about to ask you, yeah, are you gonna take a side or not?

- No, I'm not gonna take a side, 'cause I do like them both.

- Oh, you think you're better than me? Won't fall into the trap?

- But I do think there are a lot more bad examples of apple pie. You know, I think it's harder to get an apple pie right, but there's a number of factors that go into that.

- I think I agree with that. I think, in general, I think it's harder to get pie right than cake.

- Yeah, I think that's true.

- Just regardless of apples or not.

- But I do think when a pie is great, an apple pie is great, it is a really magnificent showcase for the apples themselves.

- I agree with that as well, yeah.

- And I have, early Jess-opinion, I have feelings about what apples to use for pie, and I think that's part of it.

- We've actually talked about this before, and just to give a real brief primer to people, I think we both agree that a good apple that's dependable, that is widely available is a Braeburn.

- I like a Braeburn.

- I think, to me, that's like a classic, like if you don't know what to pick and you need a good apple, a Braeburn is a safe bet.

- I want to back up for one second, though, 'cause I think about, like, apples on a spectrum, right? And I think that people get hung up on the particular variety when, really, you want to think more about, like, the category that it's filling. Like, I would consider a Granny Smith to be, like, very firm tart, so that's on, like, one end of the spectrum. And then on the other end of the spectrum, take a McIntosh which I think of as, like, very sweet and pretty soft, and so, you know, you want to, like, match your apple. I mean, we don't have to get crazy about it, but it's like you want to sort of match your apple to your bake. And then within firm tart, there's lots of varieties that fall in that, like firm sweet.

- Soft and tart.

- Soft and tart, soft and sweet. And so, you know-

- I think I'm soft and tart.

- You're soft and tart?

- I think that's my personality.

- Interesting.

- Yeah.

- Okay, I think that could be right. I'm more like, I think I might just be firm and tart. I'm the Granny Smith. Ugh, no wonder I had such a strong reaction, but I think, like, if you're, say, baking a pie, I would not want to use a sweet, soft apple, because what's gonna happen? Welcome to Applesauce Town. I mean, apples, there is a spectrum of flavor, right? So that I think, like, it's nice to use a mix, because you get some of the best qualities, especially in a pie. You know, you want to use a firmer, tarter apple for some structure so it doesn't turn to mush, along with a sweeter variety. I love a Cortland, that's one of my favorite apples. I think a Braeburn is really nice.

- For baking anything?

- For baking, anything.

- Okay, so do you have a recommendation for, like, apple pie?

- I would use a mix. I would not include McIntosh in that mix.

- Okay.

- But I would use a Cortland, I would use a Braeburn. I might use a Golden Delicious in a fractional amount, but I think, like, by mixing it, it's sort of like a custom blend of coffee, right? Like, you're getting some of the better elements of each.

- Right, you have to familiarize yourself with apples, which yeah, okay, you said it's a challenge. It's also the opportunity, it's the great thing. It's a great thing about right now. I mean, when I go to the farmers market during this time, as will not surprise you, I go a little crazy, and I throw in two of each apple. Honestly, I don't remember what they are when I get them home, but it's the variety of the apples, you know, and how different they are, and the different flavors, and the different acidity levels that makes it fun to eat.

- And now, I think more farmers are trying, like, you know, they're experimenting with different, you know, varieties or they're resurrecting older trees, so there's, like, a bigger palette to paint from.

- Yes, right, yeah. What do you think about the Cosmic Crisp apple?

- Oh, yeah, new on the scene. I mean, it's interesting to think about, like, a new fruit being invented, but it was.

- I know.

- It's the first apple ever bred in Washington state, and you know, Washington, big apple-producing state, definitely in the top 10, maybe surpasses...

- It may be number one.

- Probably surpasses everything, honestly, just by sheer volume. I kind of liked it, it was like a sneaker drop. They released the Cosmic Crisp December, I think, December of 2019, and it's made its way now, you know, to the East Coast, too. I don't know that growers are growing it, but West Coast apples are making it to the East Coast. Even my mother-in-law was like, "I'm really into this new apple, have you tried the Cosmic Crisp?" And I will say it is true to the name, very crisp. Very crisp apple.

- It's a white-fleshed apple, right? Is that right?

- White-fleshed apple. Very juicy, and it's sort of got a sweet-tart balance. I would say, like, it may not be the most dynamically-flavored apple out there, but I think for, like, an apple that you can find pretty broadly, like, that's a good choice. I mean, and I like a Pink Lady. I know you can also find those year round, but I think those are nice, like, again, on the firmer tart spectrum, but I think more interesting. I think both a Cosmic Crisp and a Pink Lady are more interesting than a Granny Smith and a Red Delicious, certainly.

- Yeah, anything that's local and in season, even a Red Delicious, is gonna be far superior than the apples you get in January, out of season, in your grocery store.

- Yeah, because they're just sitting in a storage facility somewhere and then being brought out. And they're often waxed, and so, you know, like, they're suffering a lot of indignities before they make it to the market.

- Oh, you don't have to tell me. I had to wax my face before we did this podcast. It is dehumanizing, yeah. We'll put a link in the show notes to a previous episode so you can listen to us pontificate about apples even more. For now, I'm gonna stop us, because while I'm sure that you were correct in everything you say,

- Oh, thank you.

- I did want to bring in a different expert, and that's Erin McDowell.

- Pie Queen.

- Big friend of the brand. Yes, an absolute pie queen, one of the most talented bakers in the United States. She's the author of four cookbooks, including her new one, "Bake Anything," which just came out last month. Erin's also on YouTube, and she's also instructor of some of our on-demand classes, and she teaches in person at the Vermont school a lot, so that's a hot ticket to get, so you know-

- That is a hot ticket, and I have been fully converted now-

- keep yours eyes up.

- To Erin McDowell's pie crust method.

- It's a great one.

- Yeah, I mean, I thought that I was an old dog that could be taught no new tricks, but I've been converted. So I'm excited to hear what she has to say. I know she's not a New Englander. I will forgive her that, 'cause I think she's got a lot of wisdom to impart.

- She's a Midwesterner.

- Yeah.

- Yeah. Okay, let's hear it. Erin Jeanne McDowell, friend of King Arthur, legendary baker, thank you so much for coming on the show.

- Thank you so much for having me.

- We're here to talk about apples, and I'm gonna give you a hard one first, although I think I know the answer to this one. We've been debating, Jessica and I, like, what's better, apple cake or apple pie? Just so you know, I started by saying, "I don't think we need to debate these. I think they're both great," and then I landed somewhere. I chose one pretty easily. Do you have an opinion here or you have a preference?

- I mean, who would I even be if I did not say apple pie trumps apple cake? I would not be the sparkling baker chatting to you over the internet. I know, I know.

- But I do love an apple cake, and you know, it is hard. It's almost apples and oranges only because one has such varying textures, and one, I mean, I guess they both have a little bit of variance. I love what apples can do for a cake. I love the natural sweetness and the moistness. I love all of that. It should not be discounted, but a good apple pie, what is better than that? Absolutely nothing.

- Shocking response from you, Erin. Shocking response from the author of "The Book of Pie." So let's talk about pie. I'm sure you've put a lot of thought into this. What are your go-to apples for pie?

- Yes, I would say that I kind of have two primary go-tos. For many years, especially earlier in my career, I was all about the Honeycrisp, which of course, when I started writing about the Honeycrisp, it was not nearly as popular of an apple as it is now, and now, it's a very popular, very readily-available apple. And along that same line, I really love for apple pie, the Cosmic Crisp, which is a blend of Honeycrisp and another apple called Enterprise. It's a very, very juicy apple, so you do have to kind of know how to handle it, but it just packs so much flavor. And especially for pie, it retains the texture, and kind of miraculously, they don't really turn brown, which is just an interesting... They don't really oxidize. I like the amount of apple flavor. I like how it retains its texture, but then also, you really get enough juice out of them to sort of make, like, a saucy sort of mixture around the apples, which for me, that is, I can't call it a good apple pie unless it has a few different things. It has to retain a slice, it has to hold a slice shape, but retaining a slice doesn't mean it shouldn't be juicy at all. There should maybe be some juices, like, settling out, you know, but I don't necessarily... When you cut into the pie and all the filling falls out, to me, that's not a pie, that's more of a pan dowdy situation where it's kind of soupier and cobbler-like. So yeah, that's what I'm looking for in a good apple pie.

- You're known for making pies that can pass the... What is it?

- Sturdy pie challenge.

- Sturdy pie challenge, right? People who are watching the podcast saw me sort of emulate this movement. We can lift the whole pie out of the tin. So impressive, I love that, whenever I've been able to achieve that, I've thought of you and just been so proud of myself. And there are a number of ways to get there, a lot of things to be cognizant about, but you know, juiciness and water content in the filling is certainly one of them. So how do you balance getting that sort of juiciness that you want while making sure you're not gonna get a soggy bottom?

- Yeah, absolutely, no one wants a soggy bottom, especially when you're working so hard to make pies, I always say, good pies take patience, and what's so frustrating is sometimes you don't realize that you've kind of made a mistake till the very end of the process, and so you're diving in.

- Wow, brutal.

- You know, so I think that precooking apple fillings and fruit fillings in general is sort of my number one key to making sure that the pie sets, and there's a bunch of different reasons for this. For one, we can't necessarily predict how juicy any given fruit is, so even if you're using the same apple, but maybe you make one in September, maybe you make one in October, maybe you make one in November, each time, they are gonna be a little bit different and that is just the nature and the madness that is fruit pie baking. It's a little tricky, but the more we control it at every stage, the better the end result is gonna be. So precooking the filling allows you, if you're dealing with not very juicy apples, you may not have to cook it as long. If they're really juicy, you may have to cook it longer, but the process is the same, and I think that there's something comforting in that, that we're following the same recipe, the same guidance, and just we're noticing, wow, there's a lot more juice in this than the last time I made it. I need to add another minute or two here on the stovetop. And it does make the process a little longer, because we not only have to cook the filling, we also have to cool it completely before we can put it into our crust, lest we melt our delicious, buttery, pastry layers, so I think that that is the number one thing. The other thing is I always encourage beginner pie bakers to start with single-crust pies. Double-crust pies, which we think of, they're so iconic and, you know, it's literally the pie emoji, is a double-crust pie, but as soon as we get into double crust, we are at a different level of advanced. And so I always say, when you're practicing pies, practice with single crust, because you're gonna get a nice result more reliably, and that'll give you that confidence you need to go into double-crust land, as it were. And when you're making a single-crust pie, you've got to parbake or blind bake, but we're making an apple pie, so it would be parbaking. You gotta give that crust a little bit of a head start. You got to set the structure before you put the filling in, and those results, they turn out really beautifully every single time. So single-crust apple pie is your dipping your toe into the water of no-soggy-bottomness.

- That's a great tip, and I'm glad you're bringing up single-crust apple pie, because of course, there are lots of apple pies and lots of variations from single crust to Dutch apple pie, which has, you know, got crumble on it. And one of my favorite apple pies, maybe it's technically a tart, I don't even know, but has got some cream in the filling. I believe that's a Dorie Greenspan recipe. I think it's a French style-

- Oh, I know that one, that is so good. That is a great recipe.

- Yeah, what are your top three apple pies that you like to make? I mean, I'm assuming a double crust is one of them?

- I do love a double-crust apple pie, though what I will say is that these past few years at Thanksgiving, I have noticed that my family, I typically make a double-crust apple pie and a crumb-topped or Dutch apple pie, which is single crust, and that one always gets finished first. I find that a Dutch apple pie, at least among the places I'm taking pies, it tends to be more popular. I think that's really interesting.

- It's my favorite, I'll tell you.

- Yeah, I love it, too. The cool thing is the crumb topping, especially depending on what style you use, it absorbs extra moisture in a way that if a crust absorbs that extra moisture, it's soggy, but if the crumbs absorb it, it's actually jammy, and delicious, and yeah, so good. I really am obsessed with this one very unusual apple pie from my book, "The Book on Pie," that is a two-layered pie, and the bottom layer, it's got apple pie, kind of a classic apple pie filling, and then also a butterscotch pudding layer.

- Oh wow.

- And again, it's sort of the best of a fruit pie and a cream pie. I find that a lot of kids really like it, even if they may not like a classic apple pie, sort of like the apple pie with the ice cream already on it. It's really nice, and the flavor of butterscotch and apple are really so beautiful and festive together. And as much as I want to say a double crust as the third one, I think I might even say more like a galette, because I feel like I might be making those more often. I love that thinner amount of filling, as a crust person. I love a galette because it's, like, as much crust as filling in the best possible way, and with apples, it's just so easy, because, again, no precooking involved. It's like, the simpler apple pie. So when I want to get from zero to pie as quickly as possible, it's gonna be a galette.

- I love that, "Get me from zero to pie as quick as possible," life goals. So let's move on from pie, because I don't want anybody to have the impression that all you do is pie. You do so many things and your new book is "Bake Anything," so really, throwing down the gauntlet, like, you can bake anything with Erin Jeanne McDowell. We were talking a little bit before we pressed Record, and you were talking about how apples could really come into play in so many chapters in this book, so let's play a game, because right now, I'm looking at the contents of your new book and I'm gonna see where I might see an opportunity for apples, and one place that I immediately see, the last chapter in the book is Yeasted Puff Pastry, and my mind immediately goes to, like, an apple turnover. Could I do something like that, like make an apple filling?

- Absolutely, or apple butter. I love apple butter as a filling for pies or turnovers, pastries in general. There's a really good laminated biscuit pastry that I make that has a very yeasted puff kind of vibe, but with no yeast. It's just I'm making a biscuit dough with a little bit of extra butter. How can that be bad? And then I make it with sort of like a cream cheese filling and a crumb topping. Imagine apple butter in with that or in place of the cream cheese topping, I think that would be so good. In the Brioche section, there's a monkey bread, a kind of a caramelized praline monkey bread. Chopping up some apples and putting it in that would be incredible. Also, I just love yeasted puff, and I will not follow what everybody else says, that it's not worth it to make at home, because I think anything that is delicious eaten fresh from the oven is a worthwhile thing to make from home, because you can go to a great bakery that makes croissants, Danish, absolutely, and you should, but you're rarely going to get that thing warm unless you show up at the crack of dawn or you ask them to warm it falsely in a toaster oven. And I just think that there's something so magical about whether it's a perfect croissant or it's a little subpar, eating it warm while it's steaming and buttery from the oven, that is an experience that bakers not only should have, but they deserve to have.

- Yeah, basically, I'm looking at the table of contents and I can see apples being incorporated into any chapter except maybe chocolate cake.

- No, I'm with you.

- Thank you, Erin, for talking to us so enthusiastically about apples. Your love for apples is really inspiring, actually, you know?

- Thank you so much for having me, and there's no better time of year to bake than apple season, so thank you to all my friends at King Arthur.

- This episode is brought to you by Cabot Creamery. Cabot Creamery is a farmer-owned cooperative dedicated to making delicious, high-quality cheese and dairy products. 100% of profits go back to the farm families that own Cabot Creamery, and Cabot Creamery is the butter choice of the King Arthur Test Kitchen. Have extra apples from your pie? Cabot's bold and creamy cheeses pair perfectly with sweet and juicy apples. Enjoy the pairing as a snack, add them to your next charcuterie board, or dip the apples into gooey, melty cheese during a fondue night, or indulge in the very Vermont tradition of a slice of apple pie served with a slice of cheddar cheese alongside. Every ingredient in your favorite recipe is important, but fresh creamery butter like Cabot's unsalted and salted butter is the key to the best pastries, sauces, frostings, and flaky pie crusts. You can visit Cabot's website, cabotcreamery.com, for recipes, pairing suggestions, and a curated selection of gift boxes for every occasion. That's cabotcreamery.com.

- This episode is brought to you by Supernatural. Supernatural makes sprinkles, food colors, and flavors that are completely colored by plants, fully traceable, and totally free from anything artificial or synthetic.

- And it's just a proven fact. It is just a proven fact that sprinkles make everything more fun. So you can add them to your pancake batter, you could sprinkle them on your ice cream, and of course, you can use them to top a frosted cake.

- Yeah, or a brownie, I mean-

- Or a brownie.

- There's a very popular brownie out there that has sprinkles on it. I don't mess with that, but I will mess with this.

- Supernatural sprinkles, food colors, flavors, and more at kingarthurbaking.com, and the full line is available at supernaturalkitchen.com. It's time for our next segment, Ask the Bakers. For Ask the Bakers, we want to hear from you. If you have a baking question for us, head to kingarthurbaking.com/podcast to record a voice message, and we may end up using it on the show. That's kingarthurbaking.com/podcast.

- And of course, if you have a baking question that absolutely cannot wait, you can always reach out to the Baker's Hotline via phone, email, or online chat. Just go to kingarthurbaking.com/bakers-hotline, or call us 855-371-2253. That's 2253 as in B-A-K-E, bake.

- Let's hear this week's questions all about apples.

- We use Granny Smith apples for our pie. How do we avoid the apples baking down and the crust leaving the dough?

- Oh my God, this is so triggering for you, Jessica, and we've already established Granny Smith.

- I mean, the question is not what apple should I be using for my pie? All I will say in brief, is that if you're using Granny Smith, consider, you know, mixing in a different variety. I know why you like Granny Smith. They don't turn to mush, which is a pro, they're tart. You know, they're not just... But I think there's more interesting firm tart apples out there, so I would encourage you to try. You could still keep some Granny Smith in the mix, but maybe work in some other varieties, but that's not the question I'm being asked, and I do think this is a common problem. You've got, like, a nice mound of apples, put on that top crust, it feels like everything's good, and then inevitably, as your apples cook, they release moisture, they shrink, and then you have that gap.

- Yeah.

- I mean, is it a flaw? I can see why people would consider it, like, to be a flaw.

- Right, I understand. You understand why people cut through and they're like, "Ugh, there's all this space."

- Gapping.

- "I didn't want to make an air pie."

- Yeah, exactly.

- "I wanted an apple pie."

- And I also think, like, there's something about a dense wedge of pie where it's, like, apples crust to crust. That's very satisfying, both to eat and to look at. So a few things to do. One is you can just really pack your apples in, your raw apples. Like, if you're committed to using raw apples in your pie filling, you just, like, really pack them in, press down, put more apples than you think you need, really mound them up, but, like, also give it some compression so that you've, like, eliminated the air between it.

- It's kind of like "Tetris," almost. You really have to, like-

- Yeah.

- When you see people, the pros do this, they're really-

- Jamming it in.

- Finding every space and jamming it in.

- But I honestly think there's still a challenge, which is that those apples are gonna lose water weight, and therefore, volume. So if it really bothers you, I think the other approach is to precook the apples. So you take your sliced apples, the sugar, whatever spices you're using in a saucepan on the stove, and you cook them just for 10 to 15 minutes until they release some of that water, and they're not gonna be mush, especially if you're starting with a tart apple, but they'll be, you know, like they will have lost some of their crispness, which is okay, but they will have also lost some of their water, and then you let that mixture cool. I would not put, like, your hot apple mixture into your cold crust, 'cause you're gonna get Gummy Town, USA, but then you've eliminated the moisture at the outset.

- And you can pack even more apples in, because they've been shrunken.

- Packing more apples in, and we have recipes on the site. We'll link them in the show notes that use this approach, and I think it's a good approach. This is also, I mean, it sounds like this caller is committed to a double-crusted pie, but shall we consider the Dutch apple pie?

- Oh yeah, we shall.

- You know? We shall.

- I mean, to me, I think every pie is better when it's a crumb top, so.

- Oh, every pie, okay.

- Give me Dutch every pie. Give me the Dutch pies. Give me the Dutch.

- Give me the Dutch.

- Take me to Amsterdam.

- Yeah, I mean, I think it's nice, like a layer of streusel on top, and also, not only does that add sweetness and texture, but it also gives you sort of, like, an open surface, so more of the liquid is evaporating from the pie. Also, this wasn't asked, but I just feel like if I don't say this 75 times in the episode, people aren't gonna retain it. Please, people, you have to cook your pie all the way through. In our Thanksgiving pie episode, we talk a lot about tactical tips, like what pans we use, using a baking steel or stone, these are all important, and I would encourage pie aficionados to go back and listen to that, but if there's one takeaway here from this episode, one thing you retain, fully baked, that can take more than an hour. And I start mine high, like 450, 20 minutes, then turn it down to 375 and, like, really let it go till the juices are thick and bubbling in the middle or through the vent. Also, this is apropos of this question, like, venting, you know, if you do a double-crusted pie, venting it with not just some, like, puny, little, like, paring knife tip, but like, true vents, which allow the steam to escape also gives you, like, a place to look for the bubbling juices to see if it's fully thickened, so I think those would all help.

- Yeah.

- In that spirit, let's go to the next question.

- Hi, King Arthur. I see a lot of King Arthur recipes that call for boiled cider. What is that, exactly? And if I can't find it, can I leave it out, or is there a good substitute? Thank you.

- Well, here we are, back talking about my favorite ingredient, the sponsor of the show.

- Yeah.

- Boiled cider.

- The MVP of the show.

- It's exactly what it sounds like. It's cider that's been reduced to a very concentrated syrup, that has a very strong, sweet tart flavor. What did I say earlier, that I was soft and tart?

- Yeah, yeah.

- Yeah. Sort of like the flavor. That's sort of like the flavors.

- It's so good.

- It's a soft and tart flavor. It's a great way to get apple flavor into any baked goods. What's the question, is there a good substitute? So I'm gonna say, I don't know one, honestly. I mean, you may be like me and think, "You know what? I don't need to buy boiled apple cider from kingarthurbaking.com. I can just boil my own apple cider. How did the cavemen do it?" "They didn't have kingarthurbaking.com. They were boiling that stuff on a hot stove." I have done that and it is a fool's errand, because it's very difficult to know when to stop and what the consistency should be. I ended up basically making an apple cider taffy, like a very, very, very thick caramel, dentist's nightmare, you know?

- Oh yeah?

- And it was good, but like, look, listen, it's something, basically, that we should let the pros handle, so I don't know. I guess one of the things I think about, one of the benefits beyond the apple flavor, is the acidity. So if you are really in a pinch and you have to move forward, maybe, like, a teaspoon of apple cider vinegar?

- Yeah, yeah.

- You know?

- That's the secret trick, to add a little apple cider vinegar to your apple bakes. I think it adds that tartness. It does have, especially, you know, the ones that aren't processed to death, like, you know, they retain some apple flavor.

- Yeah, for sure.

- But I do think, you know, a boiled cider is singular and it makes me think of, like, boiled cider is to apple juice as, like, tomato paste is to canned apples.

- Canned tomatoes.

- Canned tomatoes.

- Yes.

- Geez Louise, yeah.

- Geez, Louise.

- Geez, Louise.

- Just get it together.

- Get it together.

- Come on.

- You can see I didn't do so well in that part of the SATs, but I think, yeah, it's hard to replicate.

- But look at you now.

- Yeah, look at me now, it's hard to replicate that-

- Hosting a baking podcast.

- Very concentrated apple flavor. And also, you know, we would be remiss if we didn't, I know, it's a baking podcast, but there are also savory applications for it, like that drizzled over roast pork. You do apples and onions in the dish, like a pork roast with that drizzled over the top.

- Oh yeah.

- Very nice.

- That could be amazing.

- So duck? Could be good on duck.

- Maybe it's like, some roasted squash.

- Yeah, it'd delicious.

- Really nice.

- Like a glazed roasted squash, so you'll go through that bottle faster than you think.

- Yeah. Did we answer the question? Or did we answer the question that we wanted to answer?

- I think we answered the question, no. I think we answered it.

- The question was, "Can you leave it out?" Don't.

- Yes, I mean, you can leave it out, but I wouldn't. There's nothing to substitute

- You can.

- For it, really.

- Yeah, yeah.

- It's worth getting.

- You will regret it for the rest of your life. That's the answer. Is there another question we have?

- Yeah, we've got one more question.

- One more?

- Hi, King Arthur. I was wondering if you have any tips or advice for making apple pie ahead of time, especially around the holidays? Thanks so much.

- Do we ever. We have a whole recipe for this.

- I want to bake and make all my holiday food, like, weeks in advance. I'm tired of baking on the holiday. I want to relax.

- Well, I mean, I think it's like there's some things that you can't do ahead, right? Especially for the holidays.

- A few things.

- Like you're just like, there's no choice. There's things that you can't do ahead. So then I think you got to take the off-ramps for things that you can bake ahead that don't suffer at all, and happily, pies, apple pies, are one of those things.

- Yeah.

- I mean, we've talked before about, like, of course, you can do your crust ahead, you know, if you're doing pumpkin pies, things like that, but for apple pies, you can do the whole kit and caboodle. So you can precook your filling,

- Okay.

- You can make your crust, then you can assemble your pie, wrap it in plastic, or put it in a bag, and freeze the whole assembled pie.

- Wow.

- And then you have choices. You can either take the pie out the night before, let it thaw in the refrigerator, and bake it in the morning, or lazy person like me, I'm not gonna remember to take it out the night before. I just bake it from frozen, in which case you do have to add some extra time. Like, it's gonna take another 15 or 20 minutes to get truly, you know, again, you can't really overbake a pie, but it works great. I do it not just for the holidays, but I feel like there is some economy of scale. Like, if you have freezer space, if you're gonna make one pie, why not make two pies? Then you have a dessert at the ready, you can gift somebody a frozen pie, which is a really nice thing to do.

- Oh, wow.

- So it works great, and I actually think Harold McGee, who we should honestly have on this podcast, 'cause he would be like, "That's wrong, your science is..." But he has some theories that are probably backed up by actual science and research about freezing pies actually being advantageous to the texture of the crust because you're freezing the water droplets in it. And then when you put it in a hot oven, you're getting, like, the steam from the water as well as the steam from the butter, you know, and so you get extra-flaky crust.

- Wow.

- I haven't done enough A/B comparisons to really know, but the point is, like, your crust is not gonna suffer. In fact, it might even be better. Also, you know, it's not so much about the labor, although yes, the labor, but also the oven space. You know, you gotta get some stuff baked ahead, because you got to get that bird in there, you know?

- Well, and that brings me to my approach, which is to just bake the pie, start to finish, the day before.

- Yeah.

- Even the morning before, it's gonna be fine.

- And then not refrigerate it.

- Don't refrigerate, just put it out, make sure no one gets their grubby hands on it, and it's going to be fine.

- It's going to be great.

- Okay?

- In fact, because it takes a long time for a pie to cool-

- Yes.

- People are always like, "Why are my slices so soupy?" And some of that, I think, is the thickener you use, sure, but all too often, I think people are cutting into hot pies, and then it's like, "Welcome to the soup zone."

- That's why you're not getting your perfect slice.

- Yeah, that's why you're not getting it. You really got to let it set up, and your apples have a lot of pectin, so once it's, like, cooled and fully set, like, you're gonna get that, like, beautiful, diner-style slice, but you know, say your pie is baking for 90 minutes, that's not outside of the realm of possibility, and then you're letting it fully cool for five hours, like, that's basically, unless you've gotten up at the crack of dawn, that's a whole day to bake your pie and wait for it to be ready to cut, so doing it the day ahead is smart.

- I hope my family listens to this podcast, because I've been, you know, as we've talked about before, and I won't get into it now, 'cause this is not my therapy session, but I have some trauma around Thanksgiving pies with my family, and I've been telling them for years, "Let's just make the pies the day before." They're like, "The day before?"

- Yeah.

- Like, you know what? I do have some level, some level of expertise here.

- I feel like the through line of season four is, like, you were once the baker of things in your household, and like, one by one, the honor has been stripped. First, your husband started baking the bread, then your brother-in-law started baking the Thanksgiving pies, and like, pretty soon, you're just gonna be, like, the guy that goes out for ice. Like, what's your job even?

- Can I do anything? I know.

- What are you doing?

- I know, gosh, you're right.

- They're writing you right out of the family history.

- Ugh, let's get into Jess-opinions.

- That always perks you up.

- Every episode, we like to check in with Jessica to see what wildly surprising and full-throated ideas are in her head, a segment we lovingly call Jess-opinions. Jessica, what is your Jess-opinion about apple pie?

- Well, it's not actually about apple pie, it's about apples.

- Apples.

- And my opinion is that caramel apples, you know, the ones that you see at the fairs that look so enticing,

- Yep.

- Look so great, are actually disgusting.

- Oh, 1,000% agree with this.

- They're so bad.

- I don't understand them.

- There's so many things wrong with them. Caramel and apples, delicious flavor combination.

- Yeah.

- But there is something so unpleasant about, well, first of all, the caramel is, like, impossible. It looks like it's sticky on the apple, then you take that first bite, and it's sort of, like, sliding off of the apple.

- Ugh.

- And then it's, like, so chewy. It's like a textural nightmare between the chewy caramel and the hard apple, and also, let us just say, the apples underneath that caramel?

- They're not good.

- They're not good.

- Yeah.

- So often, they're like, the bruised, tragic, flavorless apple.

- Oh no.

- So then you've got this mouth of, like, wet mouthful.

- Ugh. Like mealy apple?

- A wet, mealy apple, and then, like, the sticky caramel. Bad.

- This is giving me hives.

- I know, it's terrible.

- I have never understood the caramel apple, the indignity of eating this thing. It feels like a practical joke.

- It does.

- Like you're giving this to people and they're walking around a fair, trying to get their mouths around this thing. They have caramel all over their face.

- No.

- It's getting in their hair.

- It's awful.

- Now, they're chewing on a thing that doesn't even taste good.

- No.

- It's not even a good apple, you're telling me?

- No, it's horrible.

- The only thing more confusing to me than caramel apple is the candied apple.

- Well, yes, I mean-

- That's even worse.

- The candied apples are also horrible.

- How does that work?

- Not good. I mean, you've got that-

- How are you supposed to eat it?

- Hard candy, like, jammed into your teeth. Like, who chews? It's like crunching on a lollipop, but with a mushy apple sidecar.

- And you can't eat a candied apple without looking like a clown, but you have this, like, red candy, you know, red food coloring all around your face.

- No, it's not good. It's not good.

- I mean, it's just truly insane. People, just dip your apples in some caramel.

- Yeah, I mean, that's a nice thing to do.

- You don't need a stick.

- You don't need a stick.

- And you don't need to do it in public.

- Also, lots of other delivery systems for that combination. Like last year, we published a recipe for an apple cake with a whipped caramel frosting, which is, like, mind-meltingly good. So you take a caramel, you make a caramel on the stovetop, let it cool, and then you whip that and add some butter to it, and you get all of that flavor, 'cause caramel is one of the most delicious flavors, and paired with apple, very nice combination, so there's other ways to do it that are much better. I mean, I understand, you see them all lined up there. It looks promising. Disappointment every time. We're not making caramel apples this week.

- No.

- What are you baking?

- Pumpkin Pie Snickerdoodles.

- Oh, uh-huh?

- And I've never made this before. I'm actually making these because you told me they're delicious.

- And this is-

- And I love a pumpkin cookie.

- I mean, and longtime listeners of this podcast will know that at one point, I said out loud that snickerdoodles were a terrible cookie.

- Yeah.

- I may have even said they are the worst cookie, and we heard from people about that. People were upset. I guess this is the moment where I am, how do you say, eating crow?

- Oh, nice.

- Because DT, David Turner, in our test kitchen made these Pumpkin Pie Snickerdoodles and brought them to a tasting, and everyone knows, you know, 'cause I'm so quiet about my likes and dislikes. So everyone knows that I hate snickerdoodles, and I took a bite of these, and I was like, "Dang, I actually like this cookie a lot." I brought some home, even.

- Say the full sentence.

- I like snickerdoodles. I like these snickerdoodles.

- You've changed. This is proof that people can change.

- I'm growing.

- you know, in this polarized era where we don't give anybody room to evolve and change, this is a beautiful thing.

- They're great.

- You're proving that people can change.

- Can change, and they have, you know, they have a lot in common with the traditional snickerdoodle, but they have pumpkin pie spice added to the spice on the outside, and they have pumpkin in the cookie dough itself, and they're really great. They're really great, so I'm glad you're making them.

- Yeah, so based on your recommendation, I'm making the snickerdoodle that changed Jessica's mind, which is a big thing-

- Which is hard to do.

- For a cookie to do, yes, yes.

- It's hard for anything to change my mind.

- Yes.

- So I'm gonna make this Apple Crumb Cake, which is part of our fall recipe campaign, which are all the recipes that we think are sort of, like, essential bakes for the season, and that recipe just recently got retooled. It's an older recipe, but we do that from time to time. We revisit older recipes, we optimize them, we tweak them to today's taste, so this one got a little bit of a glow-up, and man, is it good. And it has, as I was talking about earlier, the apples get cooked on the stovetop, and then they go on top of the cake batter, and then it has a streusel top, and it's very delicious.

- Oh, that's really nice.

- It kind of reminds me of those Apple Pie Bars that we released last year,

- Oh yeah.

- Which I also loved.

- Mm-hmm, those are good.

- Those have, like, a shortbread base and the cooked apples, so this is, you know, a breakfast version of that dessert.

- Delicious.

- Really good.

- Really? You know, you just mentioned something that made me realize something. One reason why I love apple bakes, whether it's pie, cookies, or cake, I consider all of that to be breakfast food.

- Oh yeah, yeah.

- If you've got apples in it, I'm eating it in the morning

- I think it's true.

- With coffee, it's delicious.

- Yeah, it is, it's one of the best things you can do this fall, and we have, I don't know, hundreds, hundreds-

- Hundreds.

- Of apple recipes on the site.

- Thousands, millions.

- Maybe thousands, certainly hundreds.

- Come on to the site and find out.

- Definitely dozens. We have a lot of apple recipes, so.

- We definitely have one.

- We definitely have at least one apple recipe, but I think in the name of harmony, whether you're, like, a galette person, a pie person, a cake person, a bar person, we have an apple bake for you, and we want to hear which ones you make, which ones you gravitate toward.

- Yes.

- In the meantime, as ever, we appreciate people tuning in, joining us here on "Things Bakers Know."

- And we hope you remember to like us and subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, or YouTube, or Spotify, Amazon Music, wherever you listen or watch your podcast. We're also on Substack, writing little missives to you and, you know, listening to your, you know, reading your comments, sometimes replying to your comments.

- Yeah, always replying. Yeah, like us,

- Like us.

- You can leave comments on Substack, you can leave comments on the episode, you can leave us a review. I regretted it when one of the commenters said that I was cringe.

- The one I did see, and it wasn't meant to be nice, but it was from, you know, a listener who turned into a viewer on Spotify and said, "Oh, this is the first time I'm watching Jessica and David. Wow, I really thought they were younger."

- I did, too. I did, too, I agree.

- Yeah, so did we. So did we, yeah.

- You can also, of course, please do share an episode with a fellow baker who you think would like to know about this podcast.

- In the meantime, people, don't forget, follow the recipe. "Things Bakers Know" is hosted and executive-produced by me, David Tamarkin.

- And me, Jessica Battilana.

- Rossi Anastopoulo is our senior producer and Chad Chenail is our producer and editor. Adam Baffa is our associate editor.

- Devin Shepherd is our production coordinator, engineering by Matt Boynton of Ultraviolet Audio. Original music by Megan and Marcus Bagala. Thanks again to Erin McDowell, pie queen, for joining us on today's episode. You can learn more about Erin and her latest cookbook, "Bake Anything" at erinjeannemcdowell.com.

- "Things Bakers Know" is a King Arthur Baking Company podcast.

- This episode is brought to you by Cabot Creamery. Cabot Creamery is a farmer-owned cooperative dedicated to making delicious, high-quality cheese and dairy products. 100% of profits go back to the farm families that own Cabot Creamery, and Cabot Creamery is the butter choice of the King Arthur Test Kitchen. Every ingredient in your favorite recipe is important, but fresh creamery butter like Cabot's unsalted and salted butter is the key to the best pastries, sauces, frostings, and flaky pie crusts. You can visit Cabot's website, cabotcreamery.com for recipes, pairing suggestions, and a curated selection of gift boxes for every occasion. That's cabotcreamery.com.

- This episode is brought to you by boiled cider, which is more or less fall in a bottle. It's made by boiling down apple cider until it reaches a thick, super concentrated syrup that is tart and sweet, and obviously, very, very appley. It is sort of a habit-forming substance because it is so delicious.

- Yeah, yeah.

- I mean, I like to kind of stir it into a little bit of hot water almost,

- Me, too.

- Like to make a little tea with it.

- Me, too.

- Yeah, it's got almost, like, the viscosity of maple syrup.

- Yes.

- But just, like, such a deep apple flavor, and so obviously, if you add it to, like, your pie fillings, you know, to your cakes, it just is like a supercharge of, like, delicious, rich apple flavor. I love it.

- Yes. We sell Vermont boiled cider on our website, kingarthurbaking.com. I think we're one of the only vendors for it, and we have tons of recipes on the site that teach you how to use it. So get yourself some boiled apple cider, people.

- Yeah, it's so good.

- What are you doing with your lives?

- it's so good.

- Hey, bakers, before you go, one last thing. You already know that King Arthur has a legendary baking school in Vermont and Washington State. Well, a few years ago, we launched a new way to take classes from our world-class educators. You can take these classes anytime, anywhere. It's called Baking School: On Demand, and guess what? "Things Bakers Know" listeners get a discount. Use code POD25 for 25% off your first order. That's P-O-D-2-5 for 25% off, if you can believe that. It's the deal of the century, but you gotta hurry, 'cause it expires on January 1st, 2027. Pick up a class for yourself, or one of your friends, or your dog at kingarthurbaking.com.