Vanilla: Boring or the Best? with Claire Saffitz

Episode Transcript

- This episode is sponsored by Brod & Taylor, breadmaking made simple. You know, I don't wanna co-opt this whole episode to talk about vanillin.

- Yeah. But I do think we should brainstorm some different names for it. I'm gonna say Felicia. Let's just call it Felicia.

- From King Arthur Baking Company, this is "Things Bakers Know." I'm Jessica Battilana, King Arthur staff editor.

- And I'm David Tamarkin, editorial director at King Arthur Baking.

- And today we're talking about vanilla. You know, it's kind of funny because somewhere along the line, vanilla became a descriptor for a really basic, super boring, kind of ordinary thing or person.

- Yeah.

- But it's actually,

- Yeah, not that you've ever used it that way.

- No, of course not. It's actually one of the most fascinating, delicious ingredients in the world. And I learned so much researching this that really is kind of mind-blowing.

- Yeah. Today we are going to flip the script on vanilla. And after this episode, you're going to be using the term vanilla to describe interesting things, like quantum physics. So vanilla, you know? Like the state of the world is so vanilla. Oh my gosh.

- I love it, yeah, we're just gonna, we're reimagining. So before we get into talking about like the flavor of vanilla, I think we need to talk about what vanilla is.

- Yes, you're going to give me a lesson. I can feel it.

- Yeah.

- Like, it's a sensitive topic.

- This dynamic is really starting to evolve. So vanilla is the seed pod of a vanilla orchid. I mean, which if you've ever seen a vanilla bean, you're like, "Yeah, that tracks." It looks like a withered seed pod. And these orchids are, you know, they're a fair-weather plant. They only grow in like a really narrow band around the equator. So, or, you know, in a greenhouse, right? But really their like home base is right around the equator, including Madagascar, where half of the world's vanilla is produced, which is kind of crazy 'cause Madagascar, not a huge place. Tahiti, Mexico, Uganda. There's a very small amount of vanilla produced in Hawaii, in Ecuador. But it's like wine or cheese, where the vanilla is grown has an impact on sort of its flavor.

- It has terroir.

- Terroir, yes, exactly.

- What did I say, terroir?

- Terroir.

- I just get so nervous,

- I know, but I love that you keep shooting for the fences. You keep putting these foreign words in and trying your best.

- I can say them when I'm not on camera.

- Yeah, sure.

- Which, by the way, we're on YouTube and Spotify now. Watch us. Yeah, watch me mispronounce these words.

- I just am imagining you in your bathroom mirror every morning like, terroir, biscotti.

- I can do it. I can do it.

- But it's also, as we talked about very labor-intensive to grow vanilla. Like, this isn't just like a set-it-and-forget-it kind of plant. You need it, you need the right weather. So it's a crop that's like very susceptible to a warming climate, which is a thing that's happening now.

- Vanilla orchids are hermaphroditic, which means that they have both male and female reproductive organs. However, for whatever reason, the vanilla flower is self-sterile, so all of the vanilla orchids in the world have to be hand-pollinated.

- I mean, this is, somebody has to go in and pollinate them.

- This is crazy to think about. I don't know exactly how it's done. That would be interesting to drill down more on how things are hand-pollinated. But you start to see, okay, here we have this plant that only grows in a really narrow band in the world that will not propagate unless a human intervenes. And that discovery was actually made in the 1840s. So there was an enslaved, I was gonna say man, but really a child, a 12-year-old, Edmond Albius, and he worked on a plantation on the island of Réunion. But he learned that they brought these vines to Réunion Island, which is in the Indian Ocean, and they were like, "Hey, nothing's happening. These vines aren't, they're not propagating." And so he realized that they all had to be hand-pollinated. I doubt they gave him a lot of credit for that discovery, but that's the only way that vanilla has been able to flourish in places around the world because he discovered that they all have to be hand-pollinated.

- Yeah, that's sort of a dark origin story.

- I mean, so many origin stories are dark origin stories. To further complicate things, so like, here it is, narrow band of the world. Now it has to be hand-pollinated. You can only hand-pollinate vanilla bean orchids for a couple of hours is the window of pollination.

- It's a, that's the window for which the pollination will take.

- Yes.

- Yeah.

- So God help you if you're on your lunch break then. Like, forget it. It's just like the crop is, and then adding to all of that, the weather things.

- So once the flowers are pollinated, then the seeds begin to grow.

- Yeah.

- The seeds, and that's what we really think of as the vanilla beans.

- Yeah, those seed pods.

- And they sort of look like green beans, are about the size of a longish green bean.

- Yeah.

- And they're not like the sticky pods we think of when we think of vanilla, like that we would buy at the grocery store.

- Yeah.

- Or from a wholesaler. Before we can use them, those pods have to be cured.

- Yeah.

- If I'm not mistaken. Then dried, and that's when they become the black shriveled pods that we know and are obsessed with.

- Yeah. I mean, truly it is. So when you think about all that, you're like, well, no wonder vanilla and vanilla extract, vanilla beans, vanilla extract, are really expensive. So right now, I mean, when I last checked, I don't know if it's like how much it varies day to day, but a kilo, so 2.2 pounds, of vanilla bean pods, Madagascar-grown vanilla bean pods, is gonna run you about $300.

- Yeah, that, to be fair, that is a lot of vanilla beans.

- And you know, I think a little vanilla does go a long way, like a little real vanilla, but not, not as far as you'd think. And so of course now there is a robust secondary vanilla production, which is artificial vanilla, because true vanilla is so expensive that given our worldwide appetite for vanilla and the flavor of vanilla, we can't keep up. Like, there just simply is not enough true vanilla in the world to satisfy the world's desire.

- And I'm glad that we have a separate name for this artificial vanilla. I pronounce it vanillin.

- Yeah, that's right.

- So, and it's what gives a vanilla-ish flavor and aroma to things. So vanillin is a compound that is found naturally in vanilla beans, but the artificial version, of course, is made in a lab, synthesized from guaiacol, an oil.

- There we go again. I'm just setting you up with these words.

- Made from petrochemicals.

- Ah, petrochemicals.

- Yeah. And of course, it's much, much less expensive.

- Yes, it's much, much less expensive. I mean, there's some irony here, right? Like, vanilla is, as I said at the top of the show, supposed to be like the most basic, boring flavor. Yet our collective desire for things flavored like vanilla is, and also, I should say, scented like vanilla, is so great that it just like vastly outpaces the amount of natural vanilla that we can produce. So I mean, vanillin to the rescue, question mark? I don't know. But I mean, imitation vanilla is the standard for vanilla-flavored things that are sort of mass market products. So like vanilla box mix birthday cake, vanilla frosting, like anything that you buy, you know, not from a bakery, but from a store that's a sweet thing that has vanilla in it.

- And that's relatively cheap.

- It's gonna have vanillin. And I do sort of have, and I'm not alone in this, like I have a sort of nostalgia for that flavor, 'cause I think it is the flavor of birthday cake. You know, when we talk about birthday-cake-flavored things, what we're talking about is a vanillin-flavored thing. And I mean, and we've talked about this in previous episodes, like these things are like engineered to be delicious. Like they capture some of the essence, and then, and almost amp it up in this sort of artificial way, but it is kind of compelling.

- Yeah, I think vanillin, artificial vanilla, vanilla essence, whatever you want to call it, has had an interesting journey through in the court of public opinion.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

- I think it's a generational thing, you know. I think previous generations to ours, probably like a lot of them didn't want anything to do with vanillin because it was new and fake. But our generation and generations after us were really raised on this stuff. So it's very nostalgic for us. And so I think what Christina Tosi has really led the charge of reclaiming that flavor of vanillin as a specific flavor, a nostalgic one, one that is where there's no shame in chasing if you want it. You know, she's really, she's really, she's really gone sort of deep in the pocket. She's deep in the pockets of corporate vanilla. No, she, but she really makes a good point. Like if you want that classic birthday cake flavor that you are nostalgic for from your childhood, you need the vanillin. You do not want a vanilla bean. So it's an interesting thing. And I can appreciate the no shame vibe of it all. Like, there's no shame in it either.

- I almost wish that it had a different name.

- Yeah.

- Because I think vanillin is to vanilla as, you know, they're different things. And I don't want to, I don't want to co-opt this whole episode to talk about vanillin.

- But I do think we should brainstorm some different names for it. I'm going to say Felicia. Let's just call it Felicia.

- I think it's funny because the last time we brainstormed ideas was for white chocolate, and I don't think we were super successful. You know what? I think it got cut from the episode.

- Oh, did it?

- Yeah.

- We had some great names that I tell people.

- What was it that I came up with? It's probably gonna get cut from this one too.

- No matter how many times you say it.

- It was Creamy Butter Chips or something like that. I don't know.

- People never believe from our bad name suggestions that we work with words for a living. They're like, uh, how much workshopping?

- But anyway, we'll do that later.

- We'll do that later.

- We'll do that on our own time. We'll do that on our own time, because we have, we're sick of this true vanilla. And there are true vanilla, we are not alone in thinking like that vanilla is a really dynamic and interesting flavor. And today we have one of the country's best bakers, Claire Saffitz, who is a staunch defender and vanilla enthusiast here to talk to us. So I want to give time for that conversation and I want to give time for listener questions. So let's hear your conversation with Claire.

- Yeah. Claire Saffitz probably does not need introduction to most of our audience, but in case you don't know her, she's the author of two cookbooks, "Dessert Person" and "What's for Dessert." She has a robust YouTube operation. She's out there cooking on YouTube all the time. She, of course, was one of the famous Bon Appetit crew, and she got a lot of attention for her series there called "Gourmet Makes," which was recreating a lot of mass-produced snacks, a lot of them which use vanillin.

- Yeah.

- And of course she was remaking them in a gourmet way. When I texted Claire and asked her to come on this episode specifically, I said, "This is the right episode for you, right? Like, you want to, would you want to talk about vanilla?" And she was like, "Absolutely. Name a better flavor. Just try. Just name one."

- I was like, "Whoa, girl. You don't need to, don't yell at me. Or if you're going to yell at me, yell at me on the podcast. Let's record it."

- I hope she did.

- So let's listen. Claire Saffitz, welcome to "Things Bakers Know." It's been such a long time that I've wanted you to be on this podcast, my friend. You are one of the world's biggest vanilla fans. When I texted you and asked what you thought about vanilla, you said, "Name a better flavor, just name one," which was very aggressive. I thought I could not name one.

- Uh-huh. Okay, well, thank you for having me on. I am very excited to be here, and I am honored to be on the vanilla episode because it is truly one of the great flavors and so unique and special. And I don't know how the word vanilla got associated with something like bland and boring, because it is neither bland nor boring. So I'm very excited to talk about it.

- But do you feel like, do you ever taste things that are vanilla, like the cake or whatever, you taste a vanilla cupcake, say, and you think to yourself, actually, this is bland and boring. This does not have enough vanilla flavor. Do you think people are using enough vanilla in their baked goods?

- I think sometimes the word vanilla is like the default. It's like the default flavor. It's sort of like it doesn't have a flavor, so it gets labeled vanilla, maybe because it has a couple of teaspoons of vanilla extract in it. But I do think if you're going to market it as vanilla, it should have, it should have a distinct vanilla flavor and/or like maybe you see specks of vanilla bean in it, because I kind of wanna see the proof a little bit. Like if it's a cake, it doesn't, just call it a butter cake if it doesn't have a flavor in a sense. Like it doesn't, vanilla should not just be the label that it gets to make it sound like it has something in it. So yeah, if it's being sold to me as a vanilla something, I wanna see it and I wanna smell it and I wanna taste it for sure.

- Can you describe what vanilla tastes like? And I think this is a tricky question, but I'm gonna throw it to you anyway. Can you describe it? Like, how would you describe it to somebody who has never had it?

- I think it's like you can't define the word with the word. Like, I don't know. It is to me sort of indescribable if you can't, if you haven't had it. It is very aromatic, even a little bit spicy. But I think it's sort of hard to describe what, because it's so singular. It's like it doesn't have a lot in common with a lot of other types of flavors. But I'm just saying, I'm just dancing around the idea of what it actually tastes like, which is to say that it just tastes like vanilla. I think it's so hard to describe without saying that it tastes like vanilla.

- Yeah, I mean, I think you did a great job, but I also love that you called out the spiciness and that you called out that it can be aggressive, because there have been moments, especially when I bake with vanilla beans, that I feel like, oh, I've overdone it. Like, it can get very intense, and it's a strong flavor. It's the opposite of what the reputation is, right? It can be very strong and very not vanilla, very, I think it could be sort of like a bully of a flavor if you overdo it. What do you think?

- Yes, and I think there's also so much variation in quality of vanilla. So one vanilla product compared to another might taste very, very different actually. So that's another reason why I think it's difficult to kind of pin it down in a way. Like it can be really spicy, it can be very floral. I think vanilla is one of those things where there's so many flavor compounds going on, you know, from one vanilla to another, or from paste to extract, or from time of year. Like, there's probably so many variations from Madagascar vanilla to Tahitian vanilla, that kind of thing. But when you have a high-quality vanilla product, like you're using like a nice soft, juicy whole vanilla bean, it can be very overpowering. I also think it has that very perfume quality, and it's not just because it is used like literally in perfume and candles and other scents. So it is, like I said before, just, it is that very singular aroma and flavor. It has to be used very carefully and thoughtfully because it can overpower or it can totally disappear. So you have to be sort of conscious of the product that you're using and how strong is it and that kind of thing. It's not just like any vanilla extract or any paste or vanilla bean.

- Yeah, 100%. And you know, this brings me to one of my questions for you, which was, what is your preferred vehicle for vanilla? Is it extract? Is it paste, is it bean? But also, can you talk a little bit about whether vanilla is the kind of thing where you get what you pay for? I mean, because you're talking about all these flavor compounds. How careful do you have to be about the quality of those?

- Yes. So my preferred vehicle these days is paste. I love, I love vanilla paste. I think you get, it's just like this perfect kind of middle ground where you get, it's more, it's stronger and more pungent and effective than extract, but you get the ease of extract, which is just like, and I keep it in a squeeze bottle. I have to say, I tend to be pretty extravagant with my vanilla use, and so, and part of that is because I keep it in a squeeze bottle. It's so easy, just like add a couple little shots of it to whatever it is I'm making. So I love it. I think like scraping a vanilla bean, vanilla beans are, it's a little risky for a vanilla bean 'cause they dry out so fast. So, and this kind of segues into your question about price. I like to buy vanilla beans in bulk, but it's risky because if they dry out, then you're kind of at a loss. So I just feel like keeping paste is like you get a lot of the benefit of the bean 'cause you have the seeds in there, you get the ease of extract, you get a flavor that's somewhere in the middle in terms of its like potency. So as far as price, I generally think you get what you pay for, but I do think there's crazy price gouging that happens actually with vanilla. So I would just shop around and like compare prices. I think that there is stuff at the grocery store that's $20 that's really, really expensive and you can get a better deal elsewhere. And I would definitely consider buying in bulk because you'll get a much better deal. And like an extract, if it's stored well, like there's nothing's gonna happen to it. So also I feel like my mom's favorite place to buy vanilla extract is TJ Maxx. They have it on the shelves. I don't know if it's good or not, but I think you can get a deal.

- I think TJ Maxx and HomeGoods is the premier store for vanilla. I mean, I think you really can get good vanilla there. That's why I've bought vanilla for so many years when I lived in Chicago that I would just stock up on vanilla there. So sometimes you're using paste, sometimes you're using your homemade extract, sometimes you're using beans. What types of recipes do you feel allow vanilla to shine the best?

- For me, it's always the dairy-heavy, the simple dairy-heavy recipes, which almost always means custard. So a vanilla ice cream, a flan, a panna cotta. To me, dairy is the blank canvas. You know, there's certain, obviously we know that the flavors in vanilla are soluble in alcohol, but I just feel like they also really come through in dairy. And maybe that's partly 'cause there's some fat-soluble flavor compounds, or just by heating it, it's infusing the dairy. But that the way that vanilla bean and seeds infuse the flavor of dairy, like milk or cream, is so special and so delicious. And also you're really seeing the seeds when you're working with a custard of some kind. So that's where I really use it. I feel like in a cake recipe where you're adding starch, I would just go extract because it's like you have other things that are kind of competing. But the canvas of just like a creamy, delicious recipe is so perfect for vanilla. And that's where I really want it. And that's where I think you really experience the most intense and kind of like clearly articulated flavor from vanilla.

- I love that you are talking about the flavor, but also the visuals too, and because that is such a big part of it. I understand you're obsessed with vanilla. You can't get away from it. You dream about vanilla. You named your child Vanilla. Like, I get it. But vanilla is also, you're also pairing with vanilla in a lot of ways, right? So what is, what do you think are the best pairings with vanilla?

- Great question. I think you cannot make a chocolate chip cookie without a ton of vanilla. So somewhere along the way in my baking journey, and I don't remember when or where it came from, I learned the idea that to get the best butterscotch flavor of any kind, you have to combine, it's the combination of butter and sugar and vanilla, and it's such an essential trifecta, these three things combined. So for a chocolate chip cookie or a blondie, any kind of baked good where you want a butterscotchiness, whether that's from caramel or toffee or any combination of these flavors, you have to have a lot of vanilla. It's so essential. So, and brown butter, brown butter and vanilla together are just the most magical combination. Vanilla and citrus zest also is such, creates this kind of hybrid floral flavor enhancer that is so magical. Like, orange zest and vanilla together in a sweet bun or in a cake is, it is in some ways greater than the sum of its parts. You could do orange zest, lemon zest, and vanilla together, and if you have vanilla, if you have seeds from a bean and you have zest and you massage it into sugar, the perfume that it creates is so, so amazing and powerful. So those are the times where I think vanilla is so enhancing and it does not get lost. It's like all of those things together kind of create a new, even more amazing flavor. And then there's other combinations where I think it can be overpowered or it just gets lost and kind of obscured. And so then I'm gonna maybe throw in like a little bit of maybe extract just there in the background. I think sometimes chocolate and vanilla, like chocolate is a really strong flavor, so I think it's not, of course it's delicious, but it just doesn't work with chocolate in the same way that it works with these other kinds of ingredients. So yeah, citrus and anything like butterscotchy, caramelly, definitely.

- Claire Saffitz, thank you so much for being on "Things Bakers Know." It was a pleasure to have you here. This will not be the only time we ask you to be on the show, so I hope you'll come again.

- Thank you for having me on.

- This episode is sponsored by Brod & Taylor. Brod & Taylor builds tools for all bread bakers at every level to transform complex baking challenges into simple pleasures.

- Now, fans of the show will know that my main kitchen is notoriously cold and it takes forever for my dough to rise, which is why I love Brod & Taylor's Folding Proofer. It folds flat and then it's just this little heated pop-up box that you can tuck your dough into. And instead of, say, a 7-hour rise time, your dough will rise in like the time it's supposed to. It's amazing.

- Yeah, I mean, God forbid you should turn up the heat, Jessica, but yeah. Better tools mean better pizza. Find the Bread Proofer and many other tools at kingarthurbaking.com or at brodandtaylor.com. This episode is sponsored by Curio Spice Company, a woman-owned, mission-driven spice company.

- Curio sources spices directly and ethically from small farms around the world.

- They have spice blends and they have single origin spices. I love the blends personally. It makes it so easy. And Jessica, I'm going to tell you something. I use them in my own kitchen copiously.

- Oh, yeah? I can imagine some of these blends would be great on popcorn, you know?

- Absolutely. And it's great. They're great, a lot of them are great on salmon. A lot of them are great on brownies. Not the same ones.

- Maybe a sprinkle of their Cypress Flake Salt to finish your chocolate chip cookies. I mean, that's always a good idea.

- That, that's one that's sort of universal. It works on almost everything.

- I also appreciate that Curio Spice Company is a certified B Corp like King Arthur, and they meet verified standards for social and environmental business practices. You can find a selection of Curio spices and blends at kingarthurbaking.com or the full collection at curiospice.com. That's C-U-R-I-O-spice.com. This episode is brought to you by our recipe of the year, Flaky Puff Crust Pizza. That may sound familiar to you. That's because we did a whole episode on this special recipe back in January. But the pizza is so good, we think you should be baking it all year long. It's like if a pizza and a croissant had a baby, you would have

- You're just showing off with your pronunciations now.

- Bonjour, hi. So flaky, so crispy, so delicious. And also critically, it can be made in under two hours.

- It's a really fun bake too. You get to do lamination, but it's not hard lamination, and it just turns out each time.

- Turns out and feeds a crowd, which I think is really nice. You can find the recipe by searching "Flaky Puff Crust Pizza" on our website. We also have a video showing you how to make Flaky Puff Crust Pizza, say that 10 times fast, on our YouTube channel.

- It's time for our next segment, Ask the Bakers. For Ask the Bakers, we want to hear from you. If you have a burning question for us, head to kingarthurbaking.com/podcast to record a question, and we may end up using it on the show. That's kingarthurbaking.com/podcast.

- And of course, if you have a baking question right now that simply cannot wait, you can always reach out to our Baker's Hotline via phone, email, or online chat. There's an actual real human with baking experience on the other end. It's wild. You can go to kingarthurbaking.com/bakers-hotline. That's kingarthurbaking.com/bakers-hotline, or call us 855-371-2253. That's 2253 as in "BAKE." We're here for you.

- Yeah. Let's go to our first question.

- [Caller] I've heard that vanilla paste is all the rage. What makes it supposedly better than vanilla extract, and how do I substitute it into recipes?

- Oh, I love the skepticism here. What makes it so,

- All the rage.

- No, I was like, what makes it supposedly better? The shade.

- I know.

- I appreciate this.

- Well I think better, right? Like, it's not necessarily better. It's just different.

- It's just different.

- That's what I say to my kids.

- You know, I think that and actually when we were talking about this yesterday, one of my first reactions was, well, it's a lot of the great things about vanilla extract, but at a cheaper price point, actually not true.

- Yeah, then you crunch some numbers and you're like ounce for ounce.

- Pretty much the same, yeah.

- Pretty much the same. So and I know Claire talked about this a little bit, but of course the vanilla bean paste, I mean, paste is a little bit of a misnomer because when I think of a paste, I think of something with like the texture of peanut butter.

- Yeah, like something you can spread.

- And this is more like a, it's fluid. It's got some viscosity. It's like a syrup almost. And yeah, I think that's a fair comparison because it also has sugar added to it.

- It has sugar. I think those are the, one of the main things to know about vanilla paste. It's sweetened. It's not so sweetened that like, I mean, you're using it in such small quantities. It's not going to throw off your recipe, but it is a little sweetened. If you're putting it in whipped cream, it's gonna sweeten your whipped cream, which is nice. I like that, but it's not gonna give you, if you want, for whatever reason, an unsweetened vanilla whipped cream, then you would use vanilla extract, not vanilla paste.

- Right, exactly.

- And then you would lose out on one of the other key properties of vanilla paste, which is your favorite property of vanilla paste, I think.

- Yeah, well, that it has the seeds in it.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, it's like, so if you want, if you're making something that is white in color and you wanna see those vanilla bean flecks in there, which I think make, it's sort of premium, you know?

- The eyes see it first, baby.

- Yeah, totally.

- Feed those eyes.

- So I use vanilla bean paste if I'm making whipped cream, vanilla frosting, you know, creme brulee.

- A white cake?

- A white cake.

- Yeah.

- Because you're going to taste it, you're going to see it. If I'm making anything else, truly, I'll use vanilla extract. And you can substitute them one for one. So if your recipe calls for a teaspoon of vanilla extract, you can use a teaspoon of vanilla bean paste. And we always, like, you'll see all over King Arthur, we measure vanilla, they say, with our hearts. You know, we don't use it, we just sort of dump it in.

- Shout out to "itsholly" on Instagram. I think she coined that phrase.

- Oh, yeah.

- We measure vanilla with our hearts. That's really taken.

- I mean, that's really a, it's a luxury stance.

- Yeah, it is.

- Because we have an endless supply of vanilla. At home, I'm like, I don't measure with my heart. I measure with a measuring cup.

- Yeah, exactly, yeah.

- Yeah, the nice thing too is like vanilla extract, vanilla bean paste, they don't expire. I mean, maybe, I don't think so. I don't think they ever expire. And I'm always like, I go to visit my father, and my, one of our family jokes is that I always am like finding things in my dad's pantry that are like so old.

- Yes, you've had some really interesting stories.

- Like just some really wild stuff. And recently he was like, "I've had this vanilla extract since your mother died." My mother died like 8 years ago. And he was like, "Is it still good?" I was like, "Actually, that's the one thing I can say yes. Like everything else in here should be thrown out, but the vanilla bean paste is fine."

- Great. Yeah.

- Let's go to our next question.

- Hey, King Arthur Baking. This is Jessica in Pikesville, Maryland, and I've got a question for you. I am an avid home baker, and I have collected over the years many different extracts and flavorings, much more beyond simple vanilla extract, which definitely has its time and place in baking. So my question is, how do I substitute a different flavoring, a different extract, in a recipe in place of vanilla? Is it a 1-to-1 ratio, or do I have to scale back, let's say, an almond extract, the amount of an almond extract in comparison to the amount of a vanilla extract? How do I replace vanilla extract or some vanilla extract with a different extract, a different flavoring in my baking to experiment, to play around, to make things a little different? I'm turning to you for this answer. I know you'll have a good one. I can't wait to hear it. Thanks so much.

- Did you see my eyes get wide when she was like, "Can I substitute them one for one?" I was like, "Jessica, don't do it!"

- I did see your eyes.

- Panic.

- You see me shake my head?

- Yeah, we were, yeah, I mean.

- Extracts are, they're interesting. I actually have a note I wanna give at the end of our answer about a specific extract, but why were your eyes getting wide?

- Well, first of all, I should say there are endless amounts of extracts out there now. Like if you go to the grocery store, they're, I mean, the ones that you might be more familiar with, almond extract, peppermint extract, lemon extract. And then we start to get into sort of what I would consider to be more rogue territory. You know, orange extract. Root beer extract. Like, there are some.

- Those are, yeah.

- You know, coconut extract, just that are going to have a more specific use case.

- Yeah.

- And they vary greatly in strength, very, very different. I can't understate, I'm just, I'm at a loss for words because I'm so worked up about it.

- I think it's fair to say that most extracts that are not vanilla are stronger than vanilla extract.

- Yes, yes.

- So you would not do one-to-one because if you put it, if you measure with your heart with almond extract or coconut extract,

- You're going to have something inedible.

- You're going to have something that tastes so strong of that. I mean, these extracts are really powerful.

- Yeah. I mean, almond extract in particular, it's like a little bit of almond extract, delicious. A lot, am I being poisoned? Like it's got such a strong bitter presence. So I would say, you know, if you want to, you know, if you want to mess around.

- I think the use case here is if you, what if there's a vanilla cake and you want to turn it into a coconut-flavored cake?

- Sure.

- So your recommendation, let's say it calls for one teaspoon of vanilla, your recommendation for coconut?

- Yeah, I would start with like a quarter of that amount. I mean, you can always go up, you can never go down. And I think coconut, like because they're not, again, they're not all created equal. I would say coconut is not as powerful as like a lemon one or an almond one. Like, I'm just getting really nervous about somebody putting in like a tablespoon of almond extract into something because it will be, it'll be inedible.

- How can they test this? So we cannot recommend tasting raw batter, so I, you can either like make the cake and just experiment, and then next time you bump it up or down.

- Yeah.

- I guess you could maybe stir some extract into some whipped cream or something to taste how powerful it is, but I don't know.

- Yeah, I mean we can't in good conscience say to taste the batter.

- No, we can't.

- We can't. That's all we can say.

- And we won't.

- And we won't. And we shouldn't.

- And that's where, yes, that's where we'll leave it. That's a good place to leave it.

- I also think like where you're using the extract, like if you're using it in a batter, versus a frosting or something, like you have more ingredients to dilute it. So frosting is a great place to start.

- You could do a little batch, take a little batch out, and you have to do some math, but you can do that.

- And I think you've gotta use your noodle about this a little bit. Like there are a lot of things I'm like, well, you can't just, I wouldn't just like dump a lemon extract into a chocolate cake. Like that's not gonna be delicious.

- No, oh my gosh.

- I mean, and I don't think that Jessica's suggesting that, you know, but you wanna think about like flavor pairings, like maybe an orange extract, maybe a peppermint one, but you know, it's gonna change the, you know, it's gonna change the flavor of your cake, so.

- It's a big wide world out there.

- It is.

- You gotta be careful.

- Yeah, it is. And I do think, yeah, a little experimentation, but just be careful about that almond extract.

- Just really warning you.

- Yeah, I'm really worried, Jessica.

- Next question.

- [Caller] Hey, vanilla is pretty expensive. Are there some times I can get away with not using it?

- This is a great question and a really fair question in this economy. Like, yeah, I mean, come on. I mean, we want to make baking as accessible as possible, and we did talk about this with Claire. I was really interested to hear her answer on this because as someone who loves vanilla as much as she does, where does she use it? Does she use it in everything? Because so many chocolate cakes have you adding vanilla to the mix, and is it necessary? That's kind of an interesting question. so let's call up Claire.

- Yeah.

- Let's bring her back.

- [Claire] I generally, even though I am someone who is adding vanilla to like a lot of my baked goods, I don't add it to every single one. I don't think it's an afterthought in that way, that it's like, oh, just the thing you add a couple of splashes of. I think vanilla is best when actually it is its own flavor and that it's not just there for the sake of being there because we think that we have to add it to baked goods. So that's why it's great to have a couple different kinds. If you have an extract, you have maybe some paste, or you have some whole beans, because they're used really differently. That being said, I just love it so much that I do add it a lot to a lot of what I make. But it's not an afterthought, and that might be one of the reasons why it can be sometimes criticized. It's like, oh, you just, if you're adding it thoughtlessly to everything and you're not really tasting it, I can see why people would think that it's not the amazing flavor that it is. The point of this being that vanilla can really shine on its own. And I encourage people, if they want to, if they love to bake, or do pastry or make ice cream or whatever it is, to really invest in like one bean, which is an investment. Like, weirdly, at the grocery store, for some reason, one bean costs $20, and then you can get a pack of 25 beans for $50 if you order them online or something from a specialty site. So I would say play around with it and really use it in a way that you're going to experience the full flavor and not just as a thing that you keep a little jar of it and add it to a cake that you're baking because it's so special on its own.

- So I agree with Claire. I think that certainly if you have a chocolate cake that you love and that you like how it tastes, I'm not telling you have to stop putting vanilla in it, you know. It's not going to do harm. But if you have something that's really, really strong flavor, you can probably leave the vanilla out and maybe not miss it.

- Yeah, yeah. So use it in a place, you know, if you have to choose where it's really going to shine.

- Yeah, where it's really going to shine.

- That makes sense.

- Well, that's the end of our questions. So now we get to go into our favorite segment, right? Every episode we like to check in with Jessica to see what wildly surprising and full-throated opinions are in her head. She's already given a few this episode, but let's check in to see what her official Jess-opinion is about vanilla.

- Well, this is sort of a, I mean, I'm taking a different spin, because people often, I think there is there's a lot of talk about quiet luxury, right? Like, I think about that a lot as I'm getting older, like fewer, better things, which I think is a good, you know, it's a good guideline. Like, we don't need more stuff, we just. So one of the things that I really like to do anytime I'm like house, you know, we're heading into like summer travel season, you know, when you're hosted and you wanna bring something and you're like, what do I do? I bring wine?

- Is that something I should be doing? I should be doing? Okay, thank you. That's a good tip.

- Yeah, yeah. Maybe I'll do like a sideline manners. Like when I run out of opinion, then I'll move to manners, which I have a lot of opinions about actually.

- Jess-etiquette.

- Jess-etiquette.

- Ooh, here we go.

- All right, season 4. It could be a spin-off show.

- Yeah, a spin-off podcast.

- I like to bring our 16-ounce bottles of vanilla.

- Is that this one?

- Yeah, that's that one, which is a very generous amount of vanilla. And it's the kind of thing that even if somebody is a casual baker, because as I was saying, it never goes bad. So if they're an avid baker, they're going to be stoked.

- Yeah.

- If they're an occasional baker, they'll use it for, they'll be thinking about you for the next 10 years. And it's the kind of thing getting it in that big bottle, you're not gonna do that for yourself 'cause it's a little splurgy. I think that's like an $80 item, you know, but like cheaper than like one night in a crummy hotel, you know? Like they're washing the towels, they're like preparing the meals. Like it feels like a really thoughtful and generous gift, sort of a luxury, a quiet luxury.

- I think that's a great gift. And I do buy this for myself. Of course, full disclosure, I have the King Arthur discount that lets me do it. But it is cheaper ounce for ounce. Of course, you do have to have the money on hand to buy it. It's fun. It's fun to use. It's fun to pour vanilla from this big bottle. I've never splurged. We have a size bigger than this.

- Do we?

- Yes, we have like a, it's like a 2-liter or something.

- Wow, Chug Jug of vanilla extract.

- It's just fun and it lasts a really, really long time.

- Yeah.

- Although if you're measuring vanilla with your heart, as we were talking about before, not as long as you think. So maybe break out the teaspoons.

- So maybe my best opinion is one never show up empty-handed. Like, I don't care what you're, like do not. It doesn't matter what you bring, but you should bring something. But it does matter and you should bring something that is thoughtful and a large bottle of vanilla extract is going to surprise and delight anyone you give it to, I think.

- Well, this is a really nice, kind, sort of tender Jess-opinion, so I'd like to give a spin on it to make it a little more punchy. I think your just opinion is screw bottles of wine as a host gift, bring a bottle of vanilla.

- Bring a bottle of vanilla.

- You hate wine, right? Now I'm putting words in your mouth. Tell me, Jessica, what are you baking this week?

- I thought it was, I mean, we don't always line up our bakes with the theme, you know? But this week, I did, because I've been thinking an awful lot about vanilla, and I recently came into a cache of vanilla beans. Speaking of gifts, somebody gave me like a bundle of 20 vanilla beans, which is a really nice gift. And I am gonna make our Simple Stovetop Vanilla Pudding. I love pudding so much, and this is a really nice recipe.

- Do you like it warm or cold?

- Oh, I like it cold. Very cold.

- Okay.

- And I don't mind the skin if it gets a skin. But this is a recipe that's really simple, comes together all on the stove top, and is made with sweetened condensed milk, which gives it like a very silky, nice texture. So, and it's like, that is the place to use like your vanilla bean paste to really show off. Like you'll not only be able to see it, but like you really will be able to taste it there.

- Yeah, is that a Sarah Jampel recipe?

- It is a Sarah Jampel recipe.

- Can't lose.

- No, can't lose.

- I also am going with vanilla this week because all this talk about vanilla. And for me, I don't eat a lot of cupcakes. I love cupcakes, but I don't have occasion for cupcakes really. I don't have kids, you know?

- Yeah, I mean, you don't need to have kids to like kid cupcakes.

- I don't let kids in my apartment. But Ultra Vanilla Cupcakes with Easy Vanilla Frosting, again, another recipe where vanilla is really going to shine.

- Yeah.

- I would definitely use vanilla paste here.

- Yeah.

- Or vanilla bean.

- In the cake and in the frosting.

- In both, yeah.

- Yeah. And we have, speaking of the kids that you don't have, there is a One-Bowl Vanilla Cupcake recipe in that "Sweet & Salty!" kids' cookbook, which is easy enough for a kid to make. And we have a bunch of mix-and-match frostings too. So there's like, you can confetti-ify the cupcakes or the frosting. And actually that's a place where like you can also mess around with your extracts, you know, like you can make a vanilla base and then flavor the frosting. So that's a fun recipe if you're looking for another cupcake avenue.

- You know what my mom does that's very surprising to me? I go to her house.

- I love your mom, by the way.

- I mean, is she listening? I hope she listens. Or maybe she doesn't. She's not a fan of the podcast?

- I think she gets to it eventually.

- Yeah, okay. Well, shout out to moms. I open her freezer, and there were frozen cupcakes in there. Like iced cupcakes.

- I didn't know you could freeze those.

- Where do they come from? Does she make them?

- Like if she like gets them at a bakery and she wraps it in Saran Wrap and throws it in the freezer. I'd say I've never seen that before. I don't know if it's the best thing you can do, but you know what? I've definitely thought when I'm eating it.

- It doesn't sound bad. We know frosting freezes well. We know cake freezes well. Your mom's just like getting a shortcut to, I think it's a good idea. Anyway I don't know, we got so sweet here.

- I know.

- It's weird. We won't do it again, I promise.

- We will get back to being cynical in the next episode.

- Our acerbic selves, yeah.

- Yeah.

- Thank you for tuning in and joining us here on "Things Bakers Know." Remember to like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Amazon, Spotify, or wherever you listen, and leave us a review while you're there, or share this episode with a friend.

- And in the meantime, don't forget, follow the recipe. "Things Bakers Know" is hosted and executive produced by me, David Tamarkin.

- And me, Jessica Badalona.

- Rossi Anastopoulo is our senior producer. Chad Chenail is our producer, and Marcus Bagala is our engineer. Original music by Megan and Marcus Bagala.

- Thanks again to Claire Saffitz for appearing on today's episode. You can find more about Claire and her work at dessertperson.com.

- "Things Bakers Know" is a King Arthur Baking Company podcast.