New York Pizza: the Iconic Slice, with Wylie Dufresne

Episode Transcript

- This episode is sponsored by Brød & Taylor. Bread-making made simple. It's a snack, it's the best snack.

- Yeah, I was gonna say, like, how many pizzas do you need? Like...

- You need at least one per person.

- Done.

- Yeah.

- From King Arthur Baking Company, this is "Things Bakers Know," I'm David Tamarkin, King Arthur's editorial director.

- And I'm Jessica Battilana, staff editor at King Arthur, we're talking about something fun today.

- Today, we're talking about pizza, the king of pizza, or should I say Queens of pizza?

- Oh, I see what you did there.

- Yeah, because it is New York-style pizza. Yes, Jessica is holding up the copy, for those of you not watching on YouTube or Spotify...

- You should be.

- First of all... Second of all, what you're not seeing is Jessica holding up a copy of our brand-new sparkling cookbook, "The Book of Pizza," and she's holding it up to the classic cheese slice in the New York pizza chapter of that book, and today, we're just talking about that slice, basically.

- We're just talking about New York pizza because, I mean, there's so many different things you can talk about when you talk about pizza, but I felt like it was worth devoting an entire episode to New York Pizza because it's such a significant style and I think it's the pizza that people think of when they think of pizza.

- And I think your point is a lot of people, whether you live in New York or not, have an allegiance to New York-style pizza, or not... Maybe not an allegiance, but a appreciation.

- Yeah, I mean, and I even think, like... You know, I know that now, pizza chains deliver all sorts of styles of pizza, but I feel like a lot of those chains are sort of rooted in a New York-ish, New York-esque, you know, style of pizza, you know, sure, they make other ones too, you know, there's the stuffed crust, whatever, but I do feel like at their core, they are, like, pulling on a thread that connects to New York Pizza.

- I think you're actually really onto something because when I was researching New York-style pizza for this episode, and I guess I did it when we wrote the book, who knows? It was sort of fascinating to see that New York pizza was not just... Was actually the first American pizza, the first New York pizzeria, which was 1907 if I'm not mistaken...

- Good year.

- Lombardi's in New York was the first pizzeria in America, so New York-style pizza was sort of American-style pizza.

- So let's talk... Thin crust, 14 inches approximately, let's talk about the sauce. Tomato sauce.

- I... So this is interesting because later in this episode, I'm talking to Wylie Dufresne, who's a great chef and has a pizza shop... A few pizza shops now in New York, and he's really doing what he calls third-wave New York pizza, and we had a disagreement over what the sauce entails, but I believe, and what we say in the book, is New York pizza sauce has a little bit of sweetness to it, it has a little bit of sugar, so in the book, one of the first sauces we talk about is a no-cook pizza sauce, super easy to make, and we have a little variation which it's just this, like, throw a teaspoon of sugar in it, and then, bam, you've got New York-style, so I do think there is... There's truth to that, there's that little bit of sweet... But, you know, Wylie's point, as we'll hear, is that sweetness can come from different places, you know, it could come from the tomatoes if you're super specific and intense about where you source your tomatoes, but for those of us who are just grabbing them off the shelf at the grocery store, I think a little sugar is nice to have.

- And then, the cheese.

- Always low-moisture, shredded mozzarella.

- Whole milk. Low-moisture, whole milk mozzarella, shredded.

- You get that even blanket of cheese.

- I love the sound of that. Just tuck me in.

- I know, we're... And particularly 'cause we're recording this on a very cold day in Vermont, and...

- Yeah, just tuck me under an even blanket of cheese.

- Yes, I would love to be under a blanket of cheese right now.

- But I think what is one of the, you know, sort of most interesting and most distinctive features of New York pizza is that often, it's not sold as a whole pie, it is sold by the slice.

- Yes, and I think that this is the thing that really sort of crossed me over from, you know, allegiance to the pizza of my youth to being a New York-style pizza queen, that's what I'm gonna call myself. It's the slice and it's just nourishing, and it's not a full meal, to me, I mean, yeah, yeah, you can get two slices and a drink and that's a... Kind of a classic order, I always just get one slice, to me, it's a snack, it's something to carry me through the day or it's a little treat, you know? And it does just change my mood, it.... I just feel like it's just... I'm like, "I'm so happy now," I... It makes you forget everything bad and makes you remember everything good, and it's usually there for you, I mean, usually, no matter where you are, you can find a slice of pizza, and I'll be honest, it's not always good, there are bad slices of pizza in New York, but they're usually somewhat cheap, not as cheap as it used to be, and they're always hot, always crispy.

- Yes, I mean, and I love... I think you see, like, there's a culture of, like, you know, kids getting out of school, like what you're talking about, like, this sort of, like, snack culture of pizza, it's, like, an afterschool snack, like, being able to get a slice on your way home because, like, the slice shops in New York are ubiquitous, like, you know, and I think, you know, we talked about the size of a whole... You know, a whole pizza, but the slices, you know, it's, like, an oversized slice, like, if you get a whole pizza at home, you know, it's traditionally gonna be cut in eight slices, like, maybe in New York, it's four, maybe it's six, like, they're big slices.

- Well, I think they're making them... I think at the slice shops, they're making them really big and getting eight, 10 slices out of it, but you're right, they're huge and they should not fit on a paper plate, if it's not spilling over the paper plate that you're carrying out of the slice shop, then you're at the wrong slice shop.

- And you mentioned something that I think is really kind of, like, key about getting pizza from a slice shop, which is, like... You were saying, it's really hot and it's really crisp, and that is because of a... I mean, I was gonna say a special thing, but I don't know if it's special, but they do something, it's called reheating.

- You'll never guess.

- You'll never guess, it's called a twice-bake, not a twice-bake, but...

- But that's essentially what it is, right? I mean...

- You go in, you see your pizzas sitting out there, room temperature, and you order, they take the slice out, they throw it in a deck oven, like, a blazing-hot deck oven for, you know, a couple minutes, and then, they hand it to you, so it's, like, revitalized.

- It's revitalized, the cheese is melty, the crisp... The undercarriage is crisp and you can hold it up, and if it's done right, there will be no dip-tip, which we've talked about on the show before, but that's... You know, that's when you can hold a slice from the crust end and it should sort of, like, stay somewhat straight, like, it shouldn't flop over.

- Right, and that's particularly impressive when it's an oversized slice, like, it's one thing to get a slice that's, you know, four inches long to, you know, hold, but when you have one that's eight inches long, six... You know, whatever, like, to stay crisp from edge to edge is... I mean, and I also think that's what makes 'em so good, you have, like, the hot melty cheese and the really crunchy crust, and, you know, there's usually, like, a little bit of... You know, we did a lot of pizza testing, tasting, you know, we went to all of the New York slice shops of note and tried slices when we were working on the pizza book, you know, and we noticed, like, in the good places, and I think this is what separates, like... I was gonna say the men from the boys, which I think is the most obnoxious turn of phrase, but what really separates, like...

- I'm trying to rewrite... I'm trying to give an alt right now, but I can't think of one.

- Yeah, what separates, like, an average slice shop...

- The curd from the whey?

- What separates the curd from the whey is the crust.

- Yeah, absolutely.

- Like, a subpar slice shop is gonna have a crust that doesn't really taste like anything at all, it's a vehicle, right? It's, like, a vehicle for salty cheese and sauce, but the good slice shops, even if it's thin crust, like, you'll note that they... Like, the crust has some flavor that comes from fermentation.

- Right, right, and I do think that's another element... Sort of key element of a New York-style pizza, the crust has some age on it, you know? It's been... Usually has a cold retard for at least 24 hours, meaning, you know, it's fermented in the fridge overnight, you know, usually balled and refrigerated, and then, shaped the next day into the pies, and sometimes, much longer, but that, you know, fermentation period is what's giving it that flavor, and if it doesn't have it, which you can tell, which is a trick I learned from Martin, going from New York slice shops, we're gonna have Martin on later in the show, you can tell by ripping that crust open and sticking your nose into it and smell, you know, like, what does it smell like? Does it smell, like, kinda sweet and yeasty? That's a good thing, some New York slices now smell like sourdough, they're much more pungent because they're, you know, aging and fermenting, and using natural...

- They're using sourdough culture.

- They're using sourdough culture.

- But that's not traditional, I mean, traditional New York pizza dough is yeasted.

- Yeah, I think the... Yes, the most traditional route is yeasted and a little bit of sugar in the dough too, I mean, so just a little bit, I mean, we're not saying that New York-style pizza is sweet, but it has... It's just, like, got a little sugar.

- Well, and, you know, we've talked in other episodes in this podcast about sugar and having a... Like, sugar has a functional aspect, right? And in pizza dough, it helps with that browning, and I think that's like, you know, where some pizza styles you see, like, more even... Uneven browning or the sort of leoparding that people are trying to get, you know, in a Neapolitan pizza, but in a New York pizza, you just want, like, a brown crust.

- Yeah, it's, like, a golden... Light golden brown, yeah.

- We also have Martin Philip, the co-author of "The Book of Pizza," joining us later to talk about some of the tactical... Like, how...? Can you make New York-style pizza at home? Spoiler, yes, and we're gonna talk about how to do that.

- Yeah, so let's start with Wylie, and then, we'll get into Martin. Wylie Dufresne, thank you for coming on "Things Bakers Knows," it's so exciting to have you here.

- Thank you for having me, I'm very excited to be here, I don't know how much I know as a... Or if I'm even a baker, but I'm excited to be here nonetheless.

- You're making some of the best pizza in New York in my opinion, I love eating at Stretch Pizzeria, when you were developing the pizza, especially when you decided to start selling it to the public, did you intend to make a New York-style pizza? Is that what you consider your pizza?

- Well, when I was making pizza during quarantine, I had no... I wasn't able to go out and eat other pizza to compare it to, so all I could use was my previous life experiences, and as a child growing up in New York, I ate New York-style pizza, and so, while I only had an oven that would make roughly a 12-inch pie, I thought to myself, "I'm gonna try to make..." "I'm going to make..." "Teach myself how to make New York-style pizza in miniature," and then, as I began to make it more and more and more, I began to think, "Wait a minute, this is actually..." I imagined that the smaller you make a pizza, the better it holds up to delivery and other things, being in a box, so the idea of a restaurant with 12-inch-style New York pizza was born, and now, we do slices and we have slice shops as well, and so, we've expanded our repertoire, but it started like that I had no other memories, I didn't grow up eating Neapolitan pizza, so I had to judge the quality of my pizza based on the pizza I ate as a child.

- I love that you brought up the size of pizza, because that's definitely one element of what makes... Or of what we think of when we think of New York pizza, is the big size of it, but you've made it smaller, but you've, you know, kept elements to the pizza that make it a New York-style pizza, what are those elements? What, to you, are the elements that make it a New York-style pizza, even though it's smaller?

- Well, I think that it's important to note that pizza is very personal, and so, I think there are a lot of different people making very good New York-style pizza that will say... Will have a different opinion, so this is what I think of when I think of New York pizza, and I think of crispy, crunchy and chewy, and by that, I mean crispy on the bottom, like, a nice crispy undercarriage, it seems to be a word that's become part of the common vernacular, the bottom of the pizza. For me, crunchy is that layer between the bottom and the toppings, which, for me, is a little bit more substantial, there are plenty of people that love paper-thin New York-style pizza, for me, I like it when it's a little bit thicker down the middle so that when you do bite through the toppings and before you get to the crust, you have this crunch, there's all these little airy pockets that you bite through and you can feel it, and you often will get a very clean bite because you're going through more substrate than a thin-crust pizza, and then, the chew is often what you get to when you get to the end, the crust or the handle, that bit at the end that has a little bit of tug and a little bit of chew, so for me, a great New York slice is crispy, crunchy and chewy, and I think the crunch part is, for me, kind of where it's most important because that's where you really have the opportunity to taste the dough.

- Your crust has a lot of flavor in it, you're doing that a couple of different ways, New York pizza traditionally is an aged dough, it's aged overnight, are you doing that? And I know you also introduced a biga to your dough, right? Which is adding lots of flavor.

- Yeah, we start with a preferment, and our preferment of choice is a biga, and I think whether or not that's actually traditional, I think the answer is no, it probably wasn't originally part of New York-style pizza, but as we've seen, everything from a biga, to a poolish, to a leaven, to a sourdough, to combinations of all those things work its way into sort of this newer wave of pizza, and then, we go ahead, you know, when we make our dough the next day, our biga takes about 16 hours to ripen, and then, we go ahead and mix our dough, and then, we let... Then we ball our dough and let it cold-ferment for... We've... We really like three days...

- Oh, wow, nice.

- Of fermentation, we like that a lot, we like the texture of the dough, we like the way the dough's had some time to relax, but we've also been experimenting a lot with, like... You know, I think if you ask any baker what is the most... Single most important thing about making bread, and the answer is temperature, and so, we are constantly... Not only are we messing around with hydration, and, you know, yeast levels, and all these other... You know, sugar levels, diastatic malt, oil, we're always... We're trying to optimize fermentation, right? Fermentation... And proofing is part of the fermentation process, I think technically, you know, as a dough comes out of some sort of semi-dormant state into a prebaked, preskin state, it's still continuing to ferment, particularly as the temperature warms up, but we're trying to control all of that so that we get that dough when it's sort of at its optimal temperature for all of it so that the yeast, the... Everything's alive and, you know, when you skin that pie out, and you lay it down on the peel and you just see this entire circle of tiny, tiny bubbles all the way around, you know that that thing's just gonna go in the oven and it's gonna spring, and then, everything's, you know, gonna be okay in the world for at least eight minutes.

- I think of the traditional New York slice shop tomato sauce as being a little sweet. What is your style? Do you like that? Or do you like a little sugar in your sauce or...? And how much did you play with the sauce before opening?

- The sauce, we messed around with quite a bit at the beginning and we haven't really changed it much since, if anything, it's been about trying different tomatoes and seeing which tomato we like, but in terms of what's in the sauce, there is no sugar in our sauce, we use a, you know, California tomato, Stanislaus 7/11s, which we really like, they have a nice sweetness, a little bit of acidity, our sauce is not cooked 'cause we found that when we cooked it and it reduced even a little bit, it became too sweet, so this tomato has got some inherent sweetness as well as some acidity, and we blend that with garlic, oregano, olive oil, salt and soy sauce. We put soy sauce on our pizza because I think that there's no real reason not to because it gives you that nice umami punch.

- That's an amazing tip, and is it a little splash or do you go heavy with it?

- No, it's a splash, like, so these are things that you don't want to taste, you would not eat our sauce and go, "Aha, I pick up the soy sauce," but hopefully, you're eating it and you're feeling that it's got a richness, it's got a deliciousness, it's got, you know, some of those layers that things like soy sauce can bring, that umami, that's why everybody likes pizza, 'cause it's delicious, and why is it delicious? 'Cause it's just, like, layer after layer after layer of umami, the dough is fermented, umami, the sauce, tomatoes, inherently umami rich, oftentimes, anchovies, umami, mushrooms, umami, cheeses, Parmesan, umami, it's like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then, you eat it and you're like, "Oh, my God, I wanna eat more and I wanna eat more," it's like... You know, like, we joke around, like, you know, "Who doesn't like pizza?" Like, I'm sorry, you wouldn't let that person watch your child if they don't like pizza, they're untrustworthy, someone that doesn't like pizza 'cause there's a pizza for everyone, it's like saying they don't like ice cream, like, what, you don't like puppies too or something? I don't know, it makes you seem suspect if you don't like pizza, because there's an inherent deliciousness to pizza that we are almost wired as human beings to find delicious, there are elements of that that we almost can't argue with biologically and that's really interesting.

- We've talked about dough, we've talked about sauce, I just wanted to... Before we end our conversation, I wanna make sure we talk about cheese, what is your approach to the cheese that you're taking on your pizzas?

- Well, we are cheese-first, so we're cheese-first on our pies, many of our pies are sliced, we get in bricks of grande low-moisture mozz, as you mentioned, and we slice it ourselves in-house and many of our pies are slices of cheese first, and then, sauce and whatever additional garnishes or elements make up that pie, but we also... For the pies that we don't do slices, we will put grande pre-shredded cheese down as well, but we are firm believers in cheese, then sauce rather than sauce, then cheese, and I know that that's, again, what makes pizza great and interesting is that not everybody sees it that way, and for us, what I like is that when we lay that cheese down, it does create a little bit of a barrier, a moisture barrier between the sauce and the dough, and so, I think particularly, when one thinks of, like, delivery and how pizza travels, and... The cheese helps with that, but, you know, we also mess around with a lot of different cheeses, we'll often cut or shred it with Munster, with Gruyère, with other Swisses, with Gouda, with all sorts of things like cheddars, we're constantly trying to mix up the cheese, I mean, obviously, cheese is an important part of pizza, and cheese is actually my favorite ingredient on the pie, I love cheese, it's the one food I eat every day without fail, I don't eat pizza every day but I eat cheese every single day, and that's probably not great, but it certainly is something that I enjoy very much, and so, messing around and finding great, fun cheeses that go on there, and to your point, there's often hard cheeses as well, some pecorino, some ricotta... Well, ricotta salatas in the middle, or Parmesan, or a combination of all those, or any number of other, you know, nice cheese... Manchego, we've messed around with a lot of different cheeses, and cheese is a fun component to put on a pie, and important, right? Pizza is dough, sauce and cheese, that's really what pizza is, and within... Once you understand it's dough, sauce and cheese, you sort of... Sky's the limit. And we're having a lot of fun, I love being in the pizza business, I love being in the pizza game, pizza's an exciting thing to make and I just... I feel lucky that I get to learn new stuff all the time and really, really excited, and certainly fans of the folks at King Arthur and the products that they offer us, you know, it makes up 80% of our pizza dough.

- Thank you so much, Chef, for joining us here, it's been a pleasure to talk to you.

- Thank you very much, the pleasure's all mine.

- This episode is sponsored by Brød & Taylor. Brød & Taylor builds tools for all bread bakers at every level to transform complex baking challenges into simple pleasures.

- Now, fans of the show will know that my main kitchen is notoriously cold and it takes forever for my dough to rise, which is why I love Brød & Taylor's Folding Proofer. It folds flat, and then, it's just this little heated pop-up box that you can tuck your dough into, and instead of, say, a seven-hour rise time, your dough will rise in, like, the time it's supposed to, it's amazing.

- Yeah, I mean, God forbid you should turn up the heat, Jessica, but yeah. Better tools mean better pizza, find the bread proofer and many other tools at kingarthurbaking.com or at brodandtaylor.com.

- This episode is sponsored by Curio Spice Co, a woman-owned, mission-driven spice company.

- Jessica, somebody sent me a box of their spices once and it was honestly one of the best gifts I've ever been given, I am obsessed with the Ferla Spice, which is full of single-origin herbs and spices sourced from this little farm in Italy, it's got thyme, oregano, rosemary, chilies, it's great in pizza sauce, or Jessica, I like to kinda sprinkle it on top as a finishing touch.

- Oh, yeah, I mean, in addition to the blends, they also have, you know, single spices like their Sicilian Chili Flakes, Greek Oregano and Cypress Flake Salt, which I sprinkle liberally over everything from salad to roasted potatoes.

- Yeah, or focaccia, honestly. You can find select Curio Spice Company spices at kingarthurbaking.com, and, of course, you can see their full collection at curiospice.com, that's curio, C-U-R-I-O, spice.com. This episode is brought to you by our Grains for Good program, as everyone knows, King Arthur is a certified B Corp, our values are all about people, planet and profit, and our Grains for Good program supports all of that. With our Grains For Good program, we support sustainable, regeneratively-grown wheat, say that five times fast... That helps actively heal the planet against the effects of climate change, you can find that wheat in our Golden Wheat Flour, one of my favorite flours that we sell, you can buy it online or you can buy it on grocery shelves.

- It's time for our next segment, "Ask the Bakers." For "Ask the Bakers," we wanna hear from you, if you have a burning baking question for us, head to kingarthurbaking.com/podcast to record a voice message and we may end up using it on the show, it's kingarthurbaking.com/podcast.

- And of course, if you have a baking question that simply cannot wait, you can always reach out to our Baker's Hotline via phone, email or online chat, just go to kingarthurbaking.com/bakers-hotline, that's kingarthurbaking.com/bakers-hotline, or call us, 855-371-2253, that's 2253... Before we get to our questions, we are actually "Ask the Three Bakers," we're like the Three Bears, we're like the Three Bears of bakers, yeah, we add an extra S on the segment because once again, we have Martin Philip with us here in the studio, thank you for coming, Marty.

- I'm so excited to be here, this is...

- Martin was on our holiday episode, true fans will know that he was on our holiday episode, but this is really the episode that it makes the most sense to have Martin on, one of... You know, because Martin is a co-author of "The Book of Pizza," and also, I have to say, sidebar story, we spent a lot of time eating pizza in preparation for writing this book and while writing this book, a lot of research, and I have never seen a person eat pizza in a weirder way than Martin Philip.

- I was there, I didn't notice this.

- I thought I was gonna be called out for eating so much pizza. It's my method that's getting the take-down.

- Yeah, what is it?

- I mean, the quantity is amazing, you are truly a pro when... I mean, how many...? you went to what, like, 10 slice shops a day.

- A lot, a lot, and we were even down there a couple weeks ago, you know, doing some filming and stuff, and they were like, "How did you eat so much pizza?"

- I know, it's like you've got a hollow leg of pizza.

- Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm, like, a reserve gas tank type of person, you know, second stomach.

- It's kind of amazing, I got off the subway to meet Martin at one of these... We were going to go to another pizza spot and he, like, catches me by the trash can as I'm crossing the street with a paper plate with a slice on it, he's like, "You gotta try this one," I was like, "I thought we were..." But the thing that you do is, I mean, you know, you're analyzing, right? Like, you're eating the pizza, but the whole time, you're... I mean, I've seen you eat pizza like a normal person, like, just enjoy a slice, but on a lot of these research trips, you're, like, crust first, you flip your slice around, but first, you flip it over, you're looking at the bottom, the undercarriage, then you go crust first, you break open the crust and you're like... So you're sticking your nose...

- Put your face in there.

- And you're just, like, face-planting in, and then, and only then do you, like, eat a bite of it. I was like, "Oh."

- Yeah, I'm learning the pizza. I'm learning it.

- And you know what? Now that's how I eat pizza too, and now, it's how my husband needs pizza too, so you're insulting all of us.

- Remind me to not eat pizza with you guys.

- So annoying.

- We have questions to get to, I think.

- we have a question, and the question's related to this, so let's hear it.

- How do we get a really crispy bottom when baking New York-style pizza at home?

- Well, this is the million-dollar question. That's why we brought you here.

- I mean, I would say that the sort of shortest answer possible is that the crisp crust is the culmination of everything that happened before it, right? All of the events that sort of line themselves up, so what does it begin with? Well, it begins with the mix, and the aspect of the mix that supports a crisp crust is a low-hydration dough, it needs to be a low-hydration dough, right? Because if we go into that bake with a ton of water in the dough, all of that water has to come out before it eats in a way which perceives as crispy, right?

- Yeah, that makes sense.

- So all the water's gotta come back out, so don't start with too much water. The next...

- 'Cause pizza's a relatively short bake, and so, that's why... You know, if the pizza were in the oven for an hour, that wouldn't necessarily be a problem... But we don't have that time.

- Exactly, so going from the mix, low-hydration, firm dough, very key aspect of New York-style, a little bit of oil in there also supports that crispness as well, and then, the next step that affects crispness, believe it or not, is fermentation, fermentation affects it because what we do is we have you do a bulk mix, the dough rests for an hour, then you round it, and then, it sits for eight to 10 hours, whatever it is, a long time, and it relaxes, right? And so, that allows you at the shaping phase to get this nice thin dough, right? Which is the second characteristic that I would look to, is proper thinness, you know, nice thin dough, and then, the third aspect is really the bake, right? It's the bake, so there are a couple things there to think about, one is baking surface, in the testing of the book and over the course of making a bazillion pizzas, right? Because we're pizza people, I found that my best tool at home was really the steel, the steel was, like, even a level up from the use of the baking stone, you know? So we don't recommend sheet trays, we say that the baking stones are okay, we say that the baking steel is really the thing that you wanna use for the best possible results, the best crispiest results, and finally, the other part that's key is the thing that they do in all good New York slice shops, which is the re-crisp, so after the bake, you can let it cool down fully, and then, you go back across that stone or steel at a slightly lower temperature if possible, I don't find that it's great to put it back across the stone at 500° or 550°, and in fact, in most pizzerias, you'll see that they'll have a second oven which will be, like, their re-crisp oven, so they'll have a deck... Or they'll have a deck on one of their decks in the ovens, you know, running at a slightly lower temp.

- So you don't incinerate it or dry it out too much.

- Yeah, exactly, and the way to confirm that is, you know, use an infrared, I really think that, like, the infrared for a pizza person...

- This is an infrared thermometer.

- Yeah, an infrared thermometer is really, like, a tool that will boost your pizza making and your pizza quality in a way that I don't think people quite recognize.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, for sure.

- Those are good tips. I think we have... Yeah, we do have another question, so let's hear it.

- Hi, I wanted to ask if you had any advice for toppings on pizza, should I be pre-cooking the toppings, how much is too much, and is there anything you wouldn't recommend using as a pizza topping? Thank you.

- Yes, yes.

- I like this question because when I was writing the toppings section of this book, I was writing the way I write everything, which was just sort of blindly, just, like... Just type, type, type, see what comes out of my head, and then, I go back and say, like, "Was any of that right, or is any of that good?" And I ended up typing a sentence, like, no matter what, I forget what exactly...

- Do you want me to read it in a dramatic voice for you?

- Yeah, let's bring it up.

- Yeah, okay, I'll just... Let me... You just... Yeah. "Every vegetable, yes, all of them, needs to be given some TLC before it goes on your pizza. It needs to be chopped, torn, wilted, squeezed, sauteed, salted, roasted, something." That's true. Fact.

- Well, so I wrote that and I was like, "Well, is that even true?" And then, I mean, thinking... And I think when I wrote it the first time, I said, "Every topping, yes, every single one," and that ended up to be not necessarily true, there are a few exceptions...

- Pepperoni.

- Pepperoni being, like, the big one, but anyway, the point is, yes, you have to prep toppings, most of them, to do something or else you're gonna be eating raw mushrooms, we've all had that experience on a pizza and it's terrible.

- Yeah, it's terrible, and I think not only is it unpleasant 'cause the vegetable's not... Is gonna remain raw, but, like, the water. Like, why are we precooking things? Like, because they're gonna lose water in the oven, right?

- I would say it's for texture, it's for flavor and for... Yeah, for water.

- Yeah, you put on, like, a bell pepper on there raw, just makes me mad.

- We are no longer friends if you do that, yeah.

- No, we're breaking up.

- We're breaking up, yeah.

- So if it's a pizza that goes for 15 minutes, you know, maybe a pan-style, then yes, you can get away with something like a raw sausage on there, absolutely, if it's a Neapolitan-style and it's going for three minutes, you better put a little bit extra TLC because it's just, like, a flash, you know? And, you know, some of that also, to your point, it's like, the Neapolitan-style is a looser style, is a soppier style, is a less-crisped undercarriage sort of style, so I think that there's an allowance there for a point to eating a pizza which almost perceives, like, a noodle... You know, a pasta noodle with red sauce, right? Whereas with a classic, like, New York-style, man, if it's soppy, something's wrong, you know?

- Something's gone wrong. Anyway, I think we have one last question.

- When making New York pizza or similar styles, I have trouble stretching the dough thin enough without it tearing, any tips?

- Ugh, me too. I have had this problem.

- Listeners, I hope you have another hour free 'cause we're gonna let Martin run.

- You're just letting me run for a minute?

- Yeah.

- I mean, in so many ways, this is exactly the same as the sort of crispness... Crispness? Crispness question, it's outcome, right? So if you're focusing on, like, the fact that you have holes, that's the outcome of something else that occurred in the process, right? Same...

- Yeah, that you were ham-fisted, no...

- Exactly, same as, like, "Oh, I made a baguette and my cuts didn't open, like, I don't have nice ears," or, "I made a baguette and it's got a tight alveolar structure," okay, well, that is a result, what you're experiencing is a result, right? Of something else that happened prior to that point in your dough-making, pizza-making process, right? Okay, so knowing that it occurred before, here's what I would say, and that is that the dough didn't relax enough, right? And so, if you look at many of the recipes in the book, what we've built in is a timeline which will accommodate or facilitate an easier shaping experience, right? So after the initial period of bulk, one hour, in the case of our, like, New York-style dough, the dough is rounded, it's put into containers, it rests at ambient condition, right? Room temperature, eight to 10 hours, and then, it's chilled for up to several days, and during that time period, the gluten that we've developed and, you know, relied upon as being... You know, coming in from the bread flour that we've prescribed has a chance to relax, and so, it should be that when you turn that dough out on the counter and you start the pressing phase of the shaping process, the dough should press pretty well, now, if it's not pressing pretty well, or if you're pressing but you're feeling... It's feeling like it's fighting you a little bit, just cover it, let it rest for 30 minutes, and then, come back and, you know, let it stretch, doing gravity... You know, using gravity to do the work and using the weight of the dough to sort of stretch at the rate which that dough is ready for, so...

- And this is another reason why people might wanna watch this rather than listen to it, 'cause Martin was just doing something really interesting with his hands, and we have QR codes in the book that show this, but it's like, you had your fist balled up and you were, like, turning your steering wheel, like, I can sort of...

- It's instinctual.

- Yeah, it's like you were... Which I think... I mean, and I think you're right, there is technique to it, you know, the pressing, and then, the moving to the stretch, and a lot of that, we... You know, in the videos of you making pizzas on YouTube, like, you show a lot of these in the QR code videos to the book, but I also think, and I'm just, like... Maybe I'm projecting, but I imagine that this caller, 'cause I have been this caller, has done something which is, like, you buy dough at the grocery store 'cause you want pizza that night, which is a fine thing to do, you know, you get it home, it's cold, fridge cold, and you're like, "We gotta get pizza going, like, it's go time," and you're trying to stretch this cold ball of dough, and, like, it doesn't matter if you have all the technique in the world, like, it's not gonna stretch nicely, so... Which is the... I mean, the same is true of homemade dough, but I think, like, people don't wanna, like... You've bought this convenience product and you're like, "I'm ready to go," and it's not ready to go.

- Let me give you, like, two more quick... Like, quick hot tips, one, tempering the dough is not something that everybody sort of has built into their pizza practice, right?

- And what do you mean by tempering?

- So what we mean by that is there's a period of time from when the dough is in the fridge to when you're actually gonna go to shape it, and it's a period where you're allowing it to come towards room temperature, it may not get all the way to room temperature, but giving it that period of sort of wake up, it's like, you know, in the same way that, you know, if you took a nap, when you get up, you're not ready to run out of bed, you know what I mean?

- No, I'm sure not.

- You need that sort of, like... Period of time before your body is sort of like, "Okay, I'm limbering up, I'm ready to become a pizza," so tempering can be very helpful for that, and the other one is that, listen, there's no... There's no, like, shame in pinning a dough.

- You mean using a rolling pin?

- Yeah, you can use a pin, and in fact, you know, during some of the testing that I did for the book, I did try using a pin, and absolutely for a New York-style, especially for a larger one, you just need a small pin, four to five inches in length, and then, rolling from the center to the edge, trying to avoid the edge crust if you can, but if you go onto the edge crust a little bit, that's not... That's okay, that's perfectly fine, I mean, there are plenty of pizza shops, New York-style included, that are using a pizza press, which homogenously smashes the dough nice and flat, there's nothing wrong with that, there's no shame in pinning a dough, so couple of workarounds.

- The other thing I would add to that is just... It just takes practice. If you're... You... You're not gonna stretch a pizza beautifully the first time, you're not even gonna pin a pizza beautifully the first time, and who cares if a pizza is a little misshapen, honestly, tearing is one thing, I get it, like, that's a problem, but shaping in general is a skill that you need to practice to master.

- Yeah, eat more pizzas. Pizza's a practice just like all other aspects of baking, and the best way to get better is to make mistakes, right? So throw some pizzas in there and fling 'em against the back wall of the oven, and next time, you'll be a little bit more cautious.

- Yeah, I think that's true, and there's so many... You... The two of you just put so much care into getting, like, all these tips and tricks and techniques in this book, so it's a great resource, and we have, as I said, so many videos of you making all styles of pizza on our YouTube channel, and it's always a treat to talk baking with you, my friend.

- It's what I like.

- Yeah. Do you wanna stick around for Jess-opinions?

- I would love to.

- Oh, you...

- I'd love to. Can I push back? Is there an opportunity for that?

- That's your job. That's your job.

- For, like, friction?

- That's why I want you to stay...

- That's our job, yeah.

- 'Cause our dynamic is now...

- Let's bring the friction.

- You're right, yeah.

- And now, for the spicy part of the show.

- It's not that spicy.

- Well, here we go, every episode, we like to check in with Jessica to see what wildly surprising and full-throated opinions are in her head, a segment we lovingly call "Jess-opinions," Jessica, your pizza Jess-opinion.

- I feel like so many of my opinions are, like, anti-populist, and now, I'm just, like... I'm developing a little bit of a reputation, I just am like, "Oh, you like that? Then I won't like that," and here I come again to say...

- She's 13 years old.

- Yeah, exactly. I know that people... Americans really enjoy a combination... A pizza combination of pizza and ranch dressing, and I think it is gross, so gross, I do not like... I like, like, a good homemade ranch dressing, we have one in the book, but, like, the... You know, the ranch that you get at the grocery store that people are just dunking in, no thank you, that does not appeal to me at all.

- Okay, wait, so I need some clarification, is your Jess-opinion that...? Ranch dressing is gross? Yes.

- Oh, ranch and pizza should not...

- Yeah, ranch bad. Ranch bad, ranch on pizza bad.

- Oh, wait, you don't like ranch at all?

- At all?

- I mean, I like our homemade ranch.

- Gotcha, gotcha.

- So this isn't... Like, if it's homemade ranch, are you okay with...?

- But I wouldn't put it on a pizza.

- Okay, so now, we're... Okay. You gotta slow it down 'cause you're hitting me with, like, three Jess Opinions at once, let's stick with one, let's stick with pizza and ranch.

- Pizza and ranch, I do not think should be combined.

- But is there a difference between, like, the drizzle and the dunk? I guess that's my question.

- The dunk is...

- The dunk is the one that's even worse.

- That's really offensive to me.

- Okay, got it, okay, all right.

- I just don't think it's an enhancement, I think it's a distraction.

- I don't know. I don't know.

- You know, I mean, people have a lot of feelings about crust and they... A lot of people need a little incentive to finish that last bite and they wanna dip it in something, dip it in pizza sauce, or marinara, or olive oil, or ranch.

- Ranch, or cheese, or...

- Or hot honey, you know, in Denver, that's the whole style of pizza, they serve with honey, so... Just for the crust, I like all of it, I think it's fun to dip your crust in something.

- You know, I think it's what you do if your crust isn't very good. That's what I think, I think you're like, "Oh, my crust doesn't taste great, so let me dunk it in ranch dressing," if you have a really good pizza crust... I actually love when I go out to pizza restaurants with, like... Even my kids, like, they're better now about eating crust, but, like, they leave a lot of bones behind, and I'm like... I will eat, like, one regular slice of pizza, and then, I just collect all the bones and that, to me, is the best part of good pizza, it's the crust.

- Yeah, but we put butter on bread, I mean... On great bread.

- I didn't say butter, I said ranch.

- It's true, it's true.

- I wouldn't put ranch dressing on a slice of bread either.

- I'm a love-what-you-love. That's my opinion, love what you love, man. So, like, if you want pineapple, go for it, I don't really care, I mean, like, that's your mouth, not mine, you know?

- "That's your mouth, not mine." That's a T-shirt, okay. Okay.

- So, you know, that's it, that's what I've got for you.

- All right. You got it off your chest.

- Yeah, I did. That said, we do have a great ranch recipe in the book which I would put on a salad. That's where it belongs.

- Delicious.

- The end.

- There you go, okay?

- All right, well, Martin Philip, thank you so much for coming...

- Best in the business.

- This is not the last time you'll be on the podcast...

- Okay, have me back, man.

- But catch Martin on the streets talking about pizza, he's gonna be in New York, in Boston, I hope we're gonna send him to California.

- Yeah, we're taking the show on the road.

- Yeah, and there's also On-Demand Class New York-Style Pizza coming up...

- New American pizza?

- New American pizza on the YouTubes, lots of other pizza contents, pizza people.

- Well, so now that I've made it clear that I won't be making ranch pizza this week, I do wanna talk about what we will be baking, so what's on your baking agenda for the week ahead?

- After all this pizza talk, I'm making pizza, of course, so I'm gonna make some more... Pizzas from the book, the... You know, as we've discussed before on the show, sort of one of my Jess Opinions, my favorite topping is no topping at all, I like just, like, sauce, no cheese, no toppings, so I love the... Rossa Pizza in the book, it's just sauce, some anchovy, some garlic, some olive oil, some oregano and maybe some hard cheese at the end if you want to, and I do that on the Tonda-style crust, which is super, super thin, a Roman-style, super thin, super crispy, you "pin it," you roll it out with a pin, it's a really easy dough to work with 'cause it's such a low hydration and it's great...

- It's a really good dough.

- It's a snack, it's the best snack.

- Yeah, I was gonna say, like, how many pizzas do you need? Like...

- You need at least one per person.

- Done.

- Yeah.

- How about you?

- Well, you know, like, just looking through this book again, I was reminded about... We have this olive oil cake that is in the book and we have a version of it on our site, it's called the Everyday Olive Oil Cake, and it's... It makes a nice eight-inch, round, single-layer cake, it's got a half-a-cup of, like, a fruity olive oil and it's... The flavor really comes through, but it's also just such a riffable cake, like, I think the version on the website has, like, orange zest in it, I've done it with lemon zest instead of orange zest, you can replace some of the all-purpose flour with almond flour, and the version in the pizza book has chocolate ganache poured over the top, and it's just... It's a very straightforward, simple cake, but, like, very classy, elegant, it's an elegant cake, and also, because it's all olive oil, it keeps, so it's, like, one of those cakes you can have on the countertop and you just, like, whittle away at, you know, as the week goes on, and it actually, I would say, almost improves, you know, over the course of several days, like, the flavor deepens, the texture is really plush and nice, and it's, like, just a stir-together thing.

- Yeah, it's a great cake, Stephanie Cho recipe, right? It's...

- I think so.

- Stephanie Cho did that for us a few years ago and it's become this classic that, like, everyone in King Arthur makes all the time, and the one in the pizza book is so cool, it's a beautiful photo too.

- Yeah, and I will note that, you know, I'm not the only one that likes it, right now, I mean, it's got 59 five-star reviews. People are into this cake, it's... Like, it's a great one to have in your repertoire, so I'm gonna make that, and I'll see you next week.

- Yeah, you will.

- In the meantime, as always, thank you for listening to "Things Bakers Know."

- Remember to like and subscribe us wherever you're listening, whether it's Apple Podcast, YouTube, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever.

- And leave us a review while you're there or share this episode with a friend because baking, especially baking pizza, more fun together, pizza party.

- Yeah, for sure, that... What Martin said, baking is an act of love for somebody, ugh, I almost threw up saying that, but it's true.

- I was like, "Is he gonna cry or throw up?"

- I know. In the meantime, people, when you're making a pizza, do not forget, follow the recipe. "Things Bakers Know" is hosted and executive produced by me, David Tamarkin.

- And me, Jessica Battilana.

- Rossi Anastopoulo is our senior producer, Chad Chenail is our producer and Marcus Bagala is our engineer. Original music by Megan and Marcus Bagala.

- And thanks again to Wylie Dufresne for appearing on today's episode, you can learn more about him and his pizza at stretchpizzanyc.com.

- "Things Bakers Know" is a King Arthur Baking Company podcast.