Everyone Loves Focaccia, featuring Samin Nosrat

Episode Transcript

- And people really lost their minds about that.

- It was the power of visual, of like, of soft light, like beautiful photography. From King Arthur Baking Company, this is Things Bakers Know. I'm Jessica Battilana, King Arthur staff editor.

- And I'm David Tamarkin, King Arthur's editor director. And today we're talking about a bread that has captured the imagination of Americans everywhere. Actually, people worldwide.

- Wow, okay.

- It is focaccia.

- Focaccia.

- Yeah.

- You know, it's interesting because I don't think regular people, that is to say, people that don't work in a baking company aren't thinking a lot about trends, right? Trends in baking.

- They're not hyperfocused on baking trends like we are.

- They're not laser-focused on baking trends the way we are.

- Yeah.

- But we think about them a lot.

- Yeah.

- And I think one of the things that we noticed was that, like, focaccia went from a bread that used to be just, like, a sort of fixture of the bread basket of a certain type of mid-priced Italian restaurant of the 90s.

- Yes, this is very specific, yes.

- Yes, to a bread that has really captivated bakers, including us. And you see versions now all over the place.

- Yeah, it's become a real canvas, I would say, focaccia.

- Yeah.

- And canvas for creativity. And I think it's a great entry bread for people who are new to-

- Agreed.

- Bread baking, which is one reason why it has sort of become so trendy. Which is really what we're saying, focaccia is trendy, and we're gonna be exploring that today. I like what you said about focaccia like being in the bread basket at a mid-priced restaurant. Tell me a little bit more about that.

- But yeah, well, yes, I will tell you a little bit more about that. And then... So when I was growing up, the focaccia that I knew, I mean, the focaccia that we knew really until, like, I would say maybe, like, four or five years ago was kind of, like, a low profile, you know, flatbread, maybe a half an inch tall, very tight crumb. It often had, in my experience, like needles of dried rosemary on top. You know, and at those restaurants, I remember it was sort of like the height of fashion. They would bring you, like, the cruets of olive oil. It was not bread that maybe Americans were super familiar with.

- Yeah, and I gotta say, I think that when people think of focaccia now, certainly when I hear the word focaccia, I think of something very different, but I liked that bread back then. I think I would still like it.

- Well, and I actually think-

- The thinner or tighter focaccia.

- Yeah, and we have recipes for that on our site.

- We do.

- And I think that it's probably, like, a little bit closer to the origins of this bread. So, like, you know, there are- Like focaccia is a bread that we think of as Italian. And even in Italy, like, dating back to the Etruscans, like a very old bread.

- Yes, right.

- But I think recent research has revealed that this bread, or focaccia-like bread, is actually even older than we originally thought. And that it likely dates back to, like, the Fertile Crescent, like, you know, this is an old bread because-

- It's a flat bread.

- It's a flat bread.

- Right. And those were the first breads. And yeah, and it makes sense. We can put in that context, you know, thinking about the journey focaccia has gone over the past...

- Many years.

- Three million years. You know, starting as a flatbread, I mean, it does make sense that progressively it has become sort of what it is now, which I think of something pretty tall, really open...

- Yes.

- Almost a wet interior.

- Yes.

- Something that has a very high hydration.

- Yeah, I mean, I think-

- That's the stereotype of focaccia in 2026.

- Yes, it's focaccia 2.0. So I think it has, you know, it has evolved, right? Like, and it has evolved maybe away from its sort of roots. And we were really inspired by that here. Like, we were seeing all of these beautiful, you know, I remember seeing, like, Lodge Bread Company in Los Angeles, like, they have, like, a truly absurdly thick focaccia. It's, like, two inches thick and, like, gold and bubbly and olive oil on it. And, you know, they weren't the only people to do it. We were seeing, like, a lot of our favorite bakers around the country, like, messing around with this bread. And we started messing around with it for the Big Book of Bread, sort of like, okay, we have existing focaccia recipes sort of 1.0 on our site, but, like, what is a modern focaccia?

- What is focaccia in 2025, which is when we rolled out our Recipe of the Year focaccia, and it was not the flat, you know, tight focaccia of the 90s.

- No.

- It was something very different.

- And when they started... So the test kitchen took our Big Book of Bread formula...

- Yeah.

- When we started thinking about, like, should we do focaccia as recipe of the year? So they started with that, and I remember they were, like, tweaking various things. And, you know, it would be funny to go back and look because I remember those first tests, I was like, "Great, one and done, like, this is great." And, like, to go back and look at it now, like, they were wild. Like, they were so big, so puffy.

- They were so...

- It's like the size of a pillow. Like, it was good, like-

- Yes, they were. So those listeners who have heard us talk about Recipe of the Year before, they know how much testing we do for this. And what Jessica's talking about is the initial test for our Big and Bubbly Focaccia, which was our recipe of the year 2025. We had a recipe in the Big Book of Bread, which I believe makes a full half-sheet tray of focaccia, which is already big, and it was probably three times the dough of what the recipe is in the Big Book of Bread, because the question was what it- The question we were trying to answer is, what is focaccia in 2025? And the answer is big.

- Big.

- And so they went really big.

- Yeah.

- And what my... And yes, you and I were like, "This is great, this is it. We nailed it." Our colleague, Chris, I remember came around the corner to taste and saw these enormous breads on the table, and he had a look of pure fear in his eyes. He was like, and he's the one who was like, "I just have to tell you that if I made this for my family, we would panic." Like, we would not know how to get through this bread, so we scaled back.

- We scaled back, and the recipe now is Big and Bubbly Focaccia on our site. It's like, a very polite 8x8 square pan.

- Yes, right.

- I will say though, I am drawn to the half-sheet pan of focaccia, because my... One of my great loves is a focaccia sandwich. And one of my greater loves is a slab sandwich. A party sandwich, as you know, I forced you to make party sandwiches to me once, more than once, actually. And so I love that you could take a whole- You can do it with the 8x8 too and make four sandwiches, but for, you know, okay, maybe six.

- I'm using it more out of the 8x8, but yes, yeah.

- Yeah, so I love, you know, like, I love that sort of, like, large format bread. To me, it's like, oh, it's exciting.

- So it varies, but the through line with focaccia always is that it is ultimately a flatbread enriched and various stages of hydration. But really, if you have a- It's a pan bread that's with olive oil and dimpled.

- Yes.

- Then you've probably got focaccia.

- And, you know, I was thinking about sort of, like, this focaccia renaissance that we are talking about, the sort of, like, moment where focaccia became a trend. And I mean, you can't exactly timestamp it, but I think about, you know, when our friend Samin Nosrat wrote "Salt Fat Acid Heat", and then subsequently did the Netflix series of the same name. And on that Netflix series, there's a whole episode where she makes this focaccia.

- And it's the olive oil episode.

- It's the olive oil episode, yes. And she makes this focaccia and she... I mean, it's kind of a wild technique. Like, after the dough is in the pan, it gets, like, a salt brine, which seems crazy. Like, you have a bread dough and then you're, like, just dumping salt and water on top of it.

- Yep.

- And I think that really, like, you know, Samin's a beloved personality, and I think people love that, you know, that series and that episode in particular. And then everyone was making focaccia.

- And I think the salt brining was a point of interest, and curious bakers, curious cooks were like, "Oh, I wanna try that."

- Yeah.

- But I think a lot of people watched it and were inspired to make the focaccia because they were watching Samin's hands in this oily dough, making these bubbles as you dimple. But it's really fun to make focaccia.

- It's really fun to make focaccia.

- And I think you just wanna do it.

- Yeah.

- And you wanna get your hands in there, and it's easy.

- Yeah.

- It really is an easy... I mean, it's a really nice entry-level bread that I think everybody could get into, so-

- Yeah, it is. And I think about that focaccia in that episode is, like, the focaccia that launched a thousand ships.

- Yes.

- Which is how we ended up with it as our recipe of the year, and how we ended up inviting Samin to come on the episode and talk to us.

- Yeah, and, Samin, I mean, what a great guest, I mean, to have, but I'm just thinking, we could've invited so many people on to talk about focaccia.

- Yeah.

- Because there's been so much innovation with it. I was gonna ask you, where in Portland, Maine, are you eating focaccia these days?

- Besides my house?

- Besides your house, yeah.

- I do make it at home, I actually hardly ever go out for or buy focaccia, 'cause it is really easy, and I think you get excellent results. At home.

- Yeah.

- Other breads, I'm like, eh, you know, like, it's a time commitment or whatever. Like, I'm not making baguettes every time I want a baguette. But focaccia I will make every time I want focaccia.

- Yeah. And where are you in these focaccias that you're making at home on the toppings? Like, are you topping your focaccias a lot, or are you making them pretty simple?

- I do not make... I don't top mine in a way that they are approaching pizza. I don't have any like strong objection to that. It's just not what I do, I serve focaccia usually, like, either to build a sandwich, or as a side dish to something else. So the extent of my topping is, like, an herb, an olive maybe. I'll mess around with an olive, like, maybe some slices of lemon, you know, I do sometimes. Or maybe, like, cherry tomatoes dimpled in.

- Okay.

- But I don't, like, you know, I don't go maximalist. Like we were talking about Radio Bakery and our colleague, Martin Phillip, just, he spent a lot of time down there, like, checking out their focaccia and inspired by that, did one that's topped with crème fraîche and mushrooms and we have a video for that. It's delicious, but to me then I'm like, "Well, then you're almost making pizza." And that's fine, but that's just usually not how I'm eating focaccia.

- That is maximalist, you know?

- Yeah.

- And that is where I think we are right now with focaccia. That's where, in this moment, I think that's what we're talking about, whether it's the height or the way it's topped, how wet it is, how open it is, it's at all about maximalism.

- Yeah.

- And where I was going, was specifically to make you mad is...

- This other trend in focaccia that we've seen recently of just, like, seeing how maximal we can take it, can we jelly donut focaccia? Can we cinnamon roll focaccia? Can we, you know, obviously pizzafy focaccia? This is a trend on Instagram started by a baker named Lacey Osterman, who started a trend of asking, will it focaccia?. And so, all the ones I mentioned, she did. She did jelly donut, she did spicy margarita focaccia. Buffalo chicken focaccia. I'm gonna be honest, I'll speak on this first, they all look delicious to me, I would eat most of those. I don't know if I would do spicy margarita.

- Is this margarita like the drink, or margarita like the pizza?

- The drink.

- Yeah, I have opinions about this, but I'm gonna save it for later.

- Oh, okay.

- We have a whole segment for my opinions on it.

- Anyway, can't wait to hear this conversation, more about focaccia with you and Samin.

- I went to watch, because it had been years since I watched your "Salt Fat Acid Heat" series on Netflix. I think, you know...

- Same.

- Since it came out, right? And so I watched the fat episode because it's in the fat episode that you debuted to the world this recipe for this Ligurian-style focaccia, which was not in your first book. It was not in the book.

- No, it wasn't in the book.

- It was only in the series.

- It really came from the show, yeah.

- And people really lost their minds about that focaccia.

- It was a real... You know, it wa- The power of visual, of like, of soft light, like beautiful photography. Yeah, I mean, that episode is filmed in-

- Of shallow depth of field.

- Yeah. It was filmed in Italy, you know, you're taught how to make this focaccia buy an Italian olive oil maker, and there was something really cool about that focaccia that really captivated the world, I think, which was the brine.

- The brine, I'd never seen that either.

- I had never seen it either. So for people that haven't seen the episode, and they should, because it is beautiful, tell us about that method.

- Yeah, well, also my own personal relationship to Ligurian focaccia is that I lived in Italy for two year in my early 20s, and I cooked there. And I lived in Tuscany, which, where focaccia is called schiacciata. But...

- Squished, right?

- There was this one bakery that made the schiacciata that I could not get enough of. And I, that's always been sort of my platonic ideal of focaccia. Then I came back home and I started cooking and baking, and I've just never... I'm like, "What is it that they were doing there?" So then when I got to do this scene with this baker in Liguria, and I knew I wanted to make focaccia. I mean, he was just like the local baker in that town. It was not some well-known person making super special. He was just doing it the traditional way they've been doing it forever. And then he came and I truly had no idea what he was gonna do. He showed me how to make dough, okay, I've seen that, put a punch of oil in it, to be expected. Oil on top, oil on the bottom.

- So far so good.

- Yeah, all good, and then he dimpled it and he made this very salty brine that he poured on top. Which kind of blew my mind because the idea of putting water on top of your bread when you bake it, I mean, there is this steaming in the ovens.

- Sure.

- And there's all these things, but it kind of immediately made sense, because I have historically always salted a focaccia.

- Sure.

- With flakes of salt.

- Before, you know, as it goes in the oven.

- Yep.

- And that way, the salts crystals stay, you know, they typically don't all dissolve. So you get a little rid of the crunch.

- Yeah.

- But this thing that he did, it was like the salt got completely absorbed into the top of the dough. And so it was in every bite.

- Yeah.

- And I realized that was the difference of what I had never, you know, would been able to do at home.

- Mm-hm.

- And or like achieve in America, you know?

- Yeah, and I think it really-

- It was this Italian secret.

- It was an Italian secret. And I feel like it, you know, people received it as such. Like it was very, very captivating, you know, for people. And still a delicious focaccia. And I think, you know, we talked in the beginning of the show about my memories of the first time I ate focaccia, which was like at the, you know, like the mid-priced Italian restaurants of our youth, and it was-

- In the 90s too was like the age of sundried tomato.

- Oh, yeah.

- Pesto, focaccia, yeah.

- And they were thin, you know, it was pretty thin and it was a pretty dense crumb. And that I think is more like that Ligurian focaccia from the show. Like, it's got a pretty low profile. It's got a pretty tight crumb.

- Mm-hm. No, you know what? It is tight. I don't know how to explain it, it's tight, but it's light.

- It's tight but light.

- Yeah. Like it's not the like super fluffy, yeah, you're right. It's not like super fluffy and open in that way, but it's not a dense bread.

- No.

- You know, by any means.

- And that's in part because it's got so much fat in it.

- Yeah.

- But...

- I mean, you know better than me, but yes.

- I mean, I do think, and we've been talking a lot about this in this episode is like, the times they are changing. The focaccia times they are changing. And I think that is actually reflected in...

- My own work.

- The recipe in your new book. Yeah.

- Yeah, totally. And I, you know, when I was writing "Salt Fat Acid Heat" I just felt like bread, I have such respect for bread baking and to me, like, I have the incredible privilege of living in the Bay Area, like...

- Why ever bake bread? Why would you bother?

- And there's so many just breads at my fingertips here. So it didn't... It just felt like it wasn't my place to enter the bread baking conversation in "Salt Fat Acid Heat" in any way, which is why there's no focaccia recipe. And then it was on the show and it made sense for the show within the context of filming in Liguria. And I was like, "Well, I definitely wanna have this for people," because one of my aims for the show was I wanted it to inspire people to cook, in the way that-

- Yeah.

- When you watch Chef's Table, you're inspired to book a reservation.

- You know? Like...

- Yeah.

- And so I was like, I knew I had to translate what I had learned in Italy to something doable. So I didn't want a mixer, I didn't want, you know, all the stuff, so I called our friend Josey Baker-

- Oh, yeah.

- And I asked him and also-

- Great human, great baker.

- Yeah, great human, and also my other friend, our other friend, Laurie Ellen Pellicano, two great sort of baking minds, and they really, like, helped me refine and test a recipe that sort of would have the... Would mimic what I had had in Italy, but be achievable with, like, flour you could buy in America, without a mixer, without special tools. And Josey kept being like, "Are you sure you don't want to make it with sourdough starter?" I was like, "Absolutely not," because I want it to be for everyone, people who've never baked anything. And I do think that's part of why it became a thing that everyone was doing, it was a lot of people's first thing they ever baked.

- Yeah, yeah.

- And I think that's the beauty of focaccia, is there's not the pressure of, like, beautiful proofing and shaping. There's not the pressure of a sourdough starter.

- Yeah, yeah.

- There's not the pressure- It's a very low pressure. And it's so low pressure that often you make it with spent other dough, you know?

- Right, right, and it's low pressure, but also very delicious.

- Yes.

- You know, like it's the sort of like labor to reward, you know, ratio very high. But your new recipe in "Good Things", you're not... So the "Salt Fat Acid Heat" recipe based on the Ligurian one is made with all-purpose flour. But the one in "Good Things" now, you're making with bread flour.

- Yes.

- Tell me about that.

- That was also because I wanted the first one, the one from the show to be really as achievable as possible for the maximum number of people and not require like a special trip to the store.

- Yeah.

- And so, it wasn't worth whatever... I would get a much broader net of people making the focaccia with just AP flour.

- Yeah.

- And then despite my previous sort of reticence about trying to make my own sourdough starter and bread, I am a human who survived the pandemic.

- Yeah, I mean-

- And so I did at some point, I made a starter, I spent probably three to six weeks, I don't, I can't... It's a blur of a time.

- Yeah, it is.

- Doing this. And during that time, the main thing that I like really came to understand and learn was the value of the turn.

- Okay.

- And the dough turn.

- So, yeah, which we call it in King Arthur, the stretch and folds, but-

- Oh, stretch and folds.

- Yeah, I mean, same thing, yeah.

- Yeah, and so, and like what that can do for a shape and loft.

- Right.

- So there was a way where when I saw like what a stretch and fold could do for creating that loft, combined with what the bread flour was doing, I was like, let me see if I can take this like bread flour thing, this stretch and fold from what I've like practiced in my very brief tenure as a sourdough baker, and adapt that into the focaccia, still maintaining sort of you don't need a mixer, you don't need all these things-

- Well, time out, TO, because I think there's some interesting things that our listeners might not know about. So a few things, one is that bread flour is stronger, right?

- Yes, yes.

- So a higher protein.

- Sorry, I didn't, okay.

- No, I mean, that's- And people may know this, so-

- Stronger just means it has more protein. And I like to think of it as like more muscles to keep shape.

- Yeah, yeah, well, exactly, right? And then, you know, so you're starting with a bread that will by its very nature give you a stronger dough, and then further strengthening the dough without machine mix, right? But if you don't wanna do a machine mix and you still want to build strength, that's where the-

- Time and folds.

- Time and folds, exactly. And the stretch and folds, I think is like, you know, as close to a sort of like no-knead process as you can get.

- Exactly.

- While still getting your hands dirty, you know? So you're getting in there and you're actually just physically pulling up one corner of the dough, stretching it towards the center, plopping it down, turning it, and repeating until the dough doesn't wanna stretch anymore.

- Exactly.

- And then letting it like hang out for a little while and then repeating that.

- Doing it again in process. It's like you're doing the reps, you're doing the reps.

- You doing the reps, yep, you're putting in the work and then you-

- You're training the abs.

- Exactly. And then you're letting your dough in the "Good Things" recipe then sit for a long time.

- A long time, yeah.

- And then I think, you know, both that Big and Bubbly Focaccia of ours and your recipe for focaccia have the tip to like once it's in the pan, you really have to like let it proof.

- You have to let it rise, do not rush that. Yeah, that's really important.

- Because otherwise you're not gonna get like-

- Everything you've worked for.

- Exactly.

- For not, yeah.

- What I love about focaccia is that it is not hard to make and it's, you know, like our Big and Bubbly Focaccia is an, you know, can be made in afternoon. Yours has the overnight rest.

- Oh, I'm gonna add that to my list of ones.

- Try it out.

- Yeah, I'll try it. 'Cause that is, it is a pain for mine and it does involve planning.

- But that, yeah, I mean, hands off mostly, you know, and-

- Yeah, but just time. Like sometimes you're like, "Man, I wish I had started that yesterday."

- I basically always wish that. And I do think it's a bread- I mean, I know that you can revive leftover focaccia, but I do think it is a bread best eaten like baked.

- Agreed.

- And just eaten, inhaled.

- Yes, totally agreed.

- Well, Samin, it's always a treat.

- Ugh, I love you so much.

- Never enough time, always a treat.

- No, you're the best.

- We love having you on the show and...

- I love listening to it.

- Oh, thanks, thanks.

- Yes, you guys are great.

- Well, until next time, my friend.

- Yes, I can't wait, thanks, guys.

- This episode is brought to you by King Arthur Bread Flour. So many of our bread recipes and pizza recipes call for bread flour, and here's why. With a higher protein content than all-purpose flour, bread flour gives you strong, stretchy elastic doughs that proof and bake gorgeously. Buying bread flour on our website or grocery store shelves, just look for the blue flour bag. It's time for our next segment, Ask the Bakers. For Ask the Bakers, we wanna hear from you. If you have a baking question for us, head to kingarthurbaking.com/podcast to record a voice message, and we may end up using it on the show. That's kingarthurbaking.com/podcast.

- But, you know, we get it. Sometimes you're like in the middle of a bake and you've got a question and you can't wait, you know, for another season of the podcast to have your question answered.

- You have no patience.

- You have no patience.

- You have no time.

- Your hands are in the dough. And you need a solution. In those situations, you can always reach out to our Baker's Hotline via phone, email, or online chat. You can go to kingathurbaking.com/bakers-hotline, that's kingarthurbaking.com/bakers-hotline, or call us, 855-371-2253. That's 2253 as in BAKE.

- Let's hear our first questions.

- [Adrienne] Hello, this is Adrienne in St. Louis. I have a question about focaccia. I recently had a fantastic meal at St. Vito Focacceria in Nashville, and what impressed me about their focaccia, was the layer of herbs on the top. They remained very bright and vibrant, and I assume that they added those herbs after the focaccia was baked. Because every time I tried to add them before it is baked, they turn out burnt and unappealing. I'm curious how they did that, so that I can replicate it at home, and I'm hopeful that if you called and asked them, they would tell you. Thanks.

- Well, that's what we did.

- It's what we did. And this is the focaccia restaurant or Focacceria, which is a new word to me that I had never heard of before until we got this question and looked it up yesterday. Stunning.

- Beautiful.

- I mean, I haven't had the food there, and I never heard of this place, don't even know if it's real, you know? But it's on Instagram and the focaccia are...

- They are great.

- They are beautiful, I mean, I want to eat there. We did reach out to them, they very quickly answered this question, and the answer is that they dehydrate the herbs, you know, a custom herb mix dried oregano, fennel pollen, parsley and thyme that they dehydrate at a very low temperature so as not to burn the herbs. And they sprinkle it on the focaccia after the bake.

- After it's baked.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, I think that's key. And it's interesting. Fennel pollen, that is an ingredient that I think you see a lot in Italian, like Italian country cooking. You see it less in America, but it really gives you that like sort of anise perfume to the whole thing.

- Yeah.

- And I wonder, you know, if you wanted to try this at home, I feel like just doing a blend of dried herbs is not the same. Like it's not gonna retain that same vibrancy-

- You mean from like, store bought?

- Yeah, if you were to get like dried thyme and stuff. So I think one option, I've used this with other herbs, and I imagine it would work with this combination that they describe here of oregano, parsley, thyme. You strip the leaves off, and you sandwich the leaves between layers of paper towel, and then you dehydrate them in your microwave. Low power first, and that works pretty well. Like then you get, you know, crunchy leaves, and then you could crumble it up if you don't have a food dehydrator, which I do not.

- Yeah.

- But there's other ways, I think, we were, you know, before we heard back from, from St. Vito, and thank you, St. Vito, for helping us with this question, you and I were sort of like, "Well, what would we do if we were in this situation?"

- Because neither of us would have put the herbs on the focaccia and baked it, because that's never gonna work, you know, especially for focaccia which bakes, I don't know, doesn't bake at super high temperature, what? Like, 350 usually, maybe 375, still 20 minutes, 25 minutes and it's just not gonna turn out well.

- It's not gonna work.

- So you had a, I think we both had a similar idea. You had a good one that was inspired by our current recipe of the year.

- Yeah, so the Flaky Puff Crust Pizza, the finishing touch for that is a basil and garlic oil. So fresh basil in olive oil, you know, that gets seasoned, then it's got some garlic in it, and that gets spooned on after the bake. And that I think is nice, because often focaccia recipes have you adding additional oil, you know, after it's come out of the oven just so you get that beautiful pooling.

- Right.

- So you could make a fresh herb oil. I mean, you could even like, if you wanted to be extra, extra, read all about it, you could, you know, blanch your basil, dry it and make a basil oil, you know, in like a Vitamix with olive oil, and you'd have like a very vibrant green. And you could do that parsley too, the same technique. Like that would be pretty to look at and really deliver like a very bright, fresh herb flavor. Okay, caller, well, thank you for that question, and thank you for alerting us to St. Vito, a destination we'll have to hit one day.

- Yeah, Nashville, it's a great food city, so just another awesome place to visit. Let's hear our next question.

- [Caller] Hi, there. I was wondering, how can I get a more open crumb in my focaccia?

- Hmm. I think some of this comes down to the formula.

- Yeah, I think we should start there, yeah.

- Yeah.

- 'Cause I think you're right.

- I mean, I'm channeling my inner Martin right now, where it's like, "It all starts on the day you're born." But I think that you...

- It starts in Roman times.

- It starts with the Etruscans or in the Fertile Crescent. No, but I think that you wanna look for a recipe that's a higher hydration recipe. And I know that there are probably some listeners out there that are like, "Well, how do I know?"

- Yeah.

- And you have to do math.

- Yeah, a little bit of math, yeah.

- Yeah, so you, let's see.

- In baker's math, which is the math we're talking about, it's all a ratio, you're breaking down the ingredients into ratios, and it's all based on the total amount of flour.

- Right.

- So if there are 1,000 grams of flour in this recipe and 80 grams or 800 grams of water or other liquid, then you have an 80% hydration-

- 'Cause flour is always 100%. And everything else gets calculated against the flour.

- Exactly, exactly. So what you would do is you would just you know, to figure out if it's a high hydration dough, that you don't need to go s- you can eyeball it a little bit. You know, just like look at the ratio between all the liquid versus all the flour, total up all the flour if they're like two, if there's like semolina, add that to the all-purpose or whatever.

- Sure.

- And if there's milk, I mean, actually there are focaccias, we haven't even talked about yet, sweet focaccias that are enriched with eggs and milk. If there's milk, water, add that up and then just compare the two, I would say a high, what counts as high hydration, there's no law around that, but I would say 80%.

- I was gonna say that. Yeah.

- You can reasonably assume that you're gonna get a reasonably open crumb with 80% or higher.

- Yeah, and I think the thing of it is like an 80% hydration dough, if you were say, wanting to make a shaped boule or bâtard, like might make, you know, a greener bread baker very anxious, because it's wet. And it's like-

- Yeah, sticky.

- If you dump it out, it's like an amoeba and you're like, "How do I... It's sticky." But that's where like, that's where focaccia is so brilliant because you would like almost don't even have to touch the dough, you know, like you're mixing it up, it gets puffy, it's really wet, then you're scraping it into your oiled pan, and you just do the flip once to get it coated in oil on both sides, but you don't have to touch it a lot.

- And when you do touch it to dimple it, your hands are coated in oil, so...

- Yeah.

- You're not gonna stick.

- It's not sticking like crazy. And the other thing, I mean, and this I learned, I just like learned and relearned this lesson when we were working on the Bread Book. And I still think about it all the time when I bake bread of any kind, like you really have to push the proof on it. So like when that focaccia is in the pan, like you really wanna wait, you know, you wanna keep it in a warm place, which is hard in my cold house. You know, I have to actually, you know, work, I sometimes put it on like a heating pad, or they have those heating mats, and you really wanna wait until that bread visibly looks, that dough visibly looks very bubbly. And you like give the pan a little jiggle and it should like be almost like a marshmallow.

- Yeah, and that's the benefit of having a bread that's baked in a pan.

- Yeah.

- Because the risk of overproofing is curbed by the fact that it's in a pan.

- Right.

- Because, you know, the risk of overproofing a freestanding loaf is that it's just gonna kind of...

- Yeah.

- Spread out, and it's gonna lose its shape.

- Yeah, it'll collapse.

- But you can push pan breads a little harder in the proof.

- I think that's true.

- Because they already have some built-in structure.

- Yeah, I think that's true.

- And this is not to say that you should intentionally overproof all your pan loaves, but like for focaccia specifically, if you're looking for something really bubbly, you gotta wait to see those bubbles.

- Yeah, you gotta wait, and I think, you know, it may take a little longer than you think, but I think those are the two tips. So choose a formula that, you know, favors higher hydration, that'll give you a great start, and then give it enough time in a, you know, cozy environment to reach its full potential.

- Yeah.

- That's all I want for myself. Enough time in a cozy environment.

- You know what? You're right, that is a life lesson. Just to give yourself time to reach your full potential, don't rush.

- Yeah, don't rush, don't rush.

- There's time. But I think we have one last focaccia-related question.

- Let's hear our next one.

- [Caller] I have a great focaccia recipe, but it makes way more than we can consume in one sitting. Do you have any tips for storing focaccia or reheating it so that we can enjoy it a day or two later? Thanks.

- Well, you know my answer to this, just eat more. Just eat more.

- Eat more.

- Just force yourself, don't leave that table until that focaccia's finished. I mean, I think there's a few things. If you really wanted to, if you have a recipe that you love, we were just talking about baker's math, you know, baker's math is built on ratios. You could scale it down, you know, so that's option- Door number one to scale it down.

- Yeah.

- Which I think is a fine thing to do. I mean, option two is look for, you know, a smaller recipe. Like our Big and Bubbly Focaccia is an 8x8 pan. We also have that Small Batch Cheesy Focaccia, which is made in a loaf pan. Which is great for like, you know, two people.

- Yeah.

- Say you're keeping your recipe that you love, which I hope is from the Big Book of Bread, but I'm glad that you have one that you love. Other things that I recommend, I do think that day-old focaccia makes a superlative crouton. You know, because it's already got the oil, like, built right in, you know?

- Yeah.

- So I think that is a great thing to do. I wouldn't like, you know, often when I make croutons, I, like, will assemble a bag of cubed bread in my freezer, and when I have enough of it, I will, I wouldn't do that. I would make croutons the next day and use them up. But, you know, we've been talking a bit about sandwiches. Focaccia sandwiches, which honestly, I feel like this could be a focaccia sandwich episode, very niche audience. But, one of the things that... I don't know if I would call it a pain point, but, like, say you have a focaccia sandwich and you want it to be a hot focaccia sandwich and you don't have, like, a sandwich press, right? Like, the exterior of a loaf of focaccia is, like, I mean, it's all crust, right? Like, no crumb, it's sort of sealed off. And so when you, like, go to griddle it, it's kind of, you know, it can get like, a little greasy, and sort of, you know, just, like, one texture, like, one solid texture.

- Well, it's also uneven.

- Yes.

- So it's hard to get, you know, if those dimples, those holes-

- Yes.

- They're not gonna get contact with the pan if you're griddling that, yeah.

- So what I like to do, if I'm gonna do, like, a grilled or toasted focaccia sandwich, is I, you know, I cut my focaccia in half, and then I flip it inside out. So the top becomes, you know, the top becomes the middle, I guess, right? So you have...

- Yeah.

- Like, you're exposing the crumb of the focaccia on both sides of your sandwich. And then, you know, you can butter it or you can oil it up and you'll get, like, a really, you know, you can toast it in a really nice way or griddle it in a really nice way, and it'll be sort of craggy and delicious. So, like, the inside out focaccia sandwich, I think is a great thing to do with day-old focaccia.

- I love that.

- 'Cause it can definitely be revitalized with a toast.

- Yeah, I mean, yeah. In both these situations, you're reheating the focaccia, either to make croutons or to make a sandwich.

- [Jessica] Yeah.

- And that's a great thing about focaccia, it's full of oil. So when you reheat it, the oil's gonna, like, kind of sizzle on the sides, and, like, make it-

- Exactly.

- It's gonna help with browning and crispiness really, really nice.

- Yeah, and then making, like, a grilled cheese sandwich one inside out focaccia is, that's a trick for the ages. It's so good.

- A trick for the ages. So please caller, take my trick from the ages. That's for the ages.

- So those are our questions, thank you, callers. Now it's time for the most important segment of the podcast. Every episode, we like to check in with Jessica to see what wildly surprising and full-throated ideas are in her head. A segment we lovingly call Jess Opinions, and Jessica, I think I know what your Jess opinion is gonna be this week. You hinted at it early in this episode, but hit me. What's your Jess Opinion about focaccia?

- Yeah, I mean, I think we're getting back to the will it focaccia, and my opinion is, I don't wanna find out. Like I don't. And that's not entirely true. You know, as always, here I go to offer a qualifier for it, but I think, you know, I am actually myself not a huge fan of a sweet focaccia.

- Okay.

- Like I do not want-

- As I mentioned, this a few minutes ago, it is traditional, there are traditional sweet focaccias.

- Yes, and I have the grape topped ones with sugar.

- Yes, grapes.

- And I don't want them. You know, I mean, I think it's a fine thing. Like, I don't think it should be banned worldwide, but it is not my thing. But I feel like that, I mean, and that, to me, like, the grape and sugar seems like, you know, very like a Sunday school picnic compared to, like, what people are doing with sweet focaccia now. Like...

- Okay, I think I follow your logic there.

- You know, there's, like, strawberry Danish focaccia, and, like, I mean, just because you can put anything into a bread dough does not mean that you should.

- Okay.

- I don't think. Like, exercise a little restraint. Like, strawberry Danish is great, cinnamon roll's delicious. Like, these are all great things, but, like, they don't all have to be combined into one.

- Hmm. I love the core of the Jess Opinion, which is, "Exercise some restraint, America." And I think I can get with you there just generally.

- Yeah.

- But on some of these focaccias, I just have to counterpoint this by saying, like I said before, a lot of them looked really delicious to me. I don't know if I would personally make a lot of them, I don't think I'm gonna be-

- You're making a spicy margarita one every weekend, aren't you?

- I'm not, I just don't think I would go there. However, we did sort of jump on this trend a little bit and we published a recipe for a Cinnamon Roll focaccia, another Sarah Jampel recipe, and I gotta tell you, that thing is freakishly delicious.

- Really?

- It's so good, I mean, it's maximal, you know? You're making this cinnamon roll filling, you're putting it in the dimples. There's I think a little, maybe a little more sugar. I don't think there's any cinnamon in the dough because cinnamon, you know, can inhibit fermentation. And it gets a glaze afterwards, it's a lot, but the crispy olive oily edges combined with that sweet cinnamon in the f- I mean, it's... I think it's almost an improvement on cinnamon rolls. Like I mean-

- Oh, I thought you were gonna say improvement on focaccia. No, an improvement on cinnamon rolls, okay.

- I mean, you know, I mean, because even though it's decadent, it's also really light because it's focaccia.

- Yeah.

- And even though it's really sweet, it has that kind of bitter edge from the olive oil. So it's a very complex and delicious thing. So I would encourage listeners to, well, choose a side, you know, you're either on Jessica's side or my side.

- You are on the team Jessica or team David, and, you know, you decide. I do think that recipe has been very well-received, because there are a lot of people that, you know, that want to mess around with their focaccia. And I think, you know, sure, like, sure.

- Yeah, I understand.

- You're traditionalist at heart, you know?

- I think I am, yeah, I think I am. But I should try it, you know, I should try it and then I will never admit if I was wrong, so...

- Okay, I was gonna say, "Try it and report back." But it sounds like we will not be getting that report.

- I will try it and I will report back in a future episode. So everyone can be on the edge of their seats until then.

- Yeah, we will put that recipe though for the Cinnamon Roll Focaccia.

- Yes.

- In the show notes and in our Substack, which if you have not subscribed to yet, do that.

- Yeah, some behind the scenes stuff there. David, what are you gonna bake this week?

- Well, I'm feeling a little desperate this week. Desperate for...

- So yet another week of desperation for me. Desperate for warmer weather.

- Yeah.

- I think we're at the point where, this is where I start to get tired of it. I really like the cold.

- Yeah.

- You know, I don't like it when it's sort of the year as a kind of like, one like kind of perma-season, that's sort of like in between the all year around.

- Yeah, I do think though you get to this time of year and sometimes as a New Englander, you think, "Oh, is spring just passing us by this year?" Not gonna stop by?

- Right, this is the point where it's like, okay, I'm over it now. Like I'm ready, like this is ridiculous. It's April, you know, like let's get some warmth and let's get spring going. So I'm gonna make spring happen with Strawberry Lemonade Bars, which is a very easy recipe. I believe it fits into our Bake It Easy rubric. On the site. And it's just delicious. It's exactly what it sounds like. It's a lemon-flavored bar cookie.

- Yes.

- With a frosting, strawberry frosting using dehydrated strawberries, and it's great and it's pretty. And when I eat one, I will feel a modicum of hope.

- I think, you know, yeah, I'm also gonna bake something sweet this week. I was really excited and inspired by... I love pâte à choux pastries.

- Yes.

- So cream cups, profiteroles, eclairs, like... But there was a new to me, I thought I had tried them all, that Molly Marzalek-Kelly just developed an our test kitchen for the Karpatka Cake, which is a cream puff cake, essentially, that gets split and filled...

- Oh, yeah.

- With a pastry, well, it's actually, I think it's German buttercream that she filled it with. So it's like a really rich filling and she added raspberries to her, and I just tried it in passing in the test kitchen, as we often do. But it's like, you know, we try a lot of things in the test kitchen just passing through.

- Right.

- And there's some things that, like, really, like, lodge in my-

- Yeah, they stop you.

- Yeah, and I've never made that cake before, so it's, like, always fun to try something new. And I think it could be... I mean, I know some people audition recipes before they make them for, like, events.

- Yeah.

- I never do. I just go and kind of white knuckling it and hoping for the best. But I'm thinking, like, this could be, like, a really nice sort of celebration dessert for, like, spring holidays.

- It's stunning looking.

- Anyway, so those are recipes that people might wanna try along with us.

- Yeah, great.

- As always, we appreciate our listeners tuning in to Things Bakers Know.

- Yes, remember to like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts so you know when the next episode drops.

- And you could also share this episode with a friend, maybe somebody you want to make Strawberry Lemonade Bars for you.

- Yeah.

- And you can leave us a review while you're there.

- Yes, and when you're baking this week, folks, please, please remember, follow the recipe. Things Bakers Know is hosted and executive produced by me, David Tamarkin.

- [Jessica] And me, Jessica Battilana.

- [David] Rossi Anastopoulo is our senior producer. Chad Chenail is our producer and Marcus Bagala is our engineer. Original music by Megan and Marcus Bagala.

- [Jessica] Thanks again to our friend Samin Nosrat for appearing on today's episode. You can learn more about Samin and her work, including her latest cookbook, "Good Things" at ciaosamin.com.

- [David] Things Bakers Now is a King Arthur Baking Company podcast.

- Ciao.

- Ciao.