Cracking the Cheesecake Code, featuring Carla Hall

Episode Transcript

- The image of a cheesecake. A perfectly baked cheesecake gave you, sent you back to the waterbed. No wonder you hate cheesecake. Oh my God. From King Arthur Baking Company, This is Things Bakers Know. I'm David Tamarkin, King Arthur's editorial director.

- And I'm Jessica Battilana, King Arthur's staff editor. And we are back today with season three. This is our kickoff.

- The enhanced season.

- The enhanced season. We have added a video component.

- Yes, and we are on Substack now. So please follow us there at kingarthurbaking.com. That means you can follow us on Substack. We launched a newsletter to accompany the podcast. And the video means you can watch us on YouTube and Spotify and you can listen everywhere.

- Everywhere. I think it's just nice 'cause it's another way for us to engage with our listeners, our viewers. I feel like we've gone pro, you know, we have this nice set.

- And for all the people wondering, how would it be, what would it be like if Jessica and David were in the same room?

- Yeah.

- You know?

- For all the people who are wondering, how old are they?

- Yeah.

- Now they will know.

- Yeah, but let's move on. Today we're talking about something else.

- We are, we are talking about something almost as old as us. No, we're talking about something older than us, which is cheesecake. One of America's very favorite desserts. We're starting with what I consider to be a polarizing topic. Only because you know that I have feelings, a lot of feelings about cheesecake, which is the subject of today's episode. And you also know that most of my feelings are negative.

- Yeah, I do know that.

- I support you, but I'm here to offer counterpoint for those listeners and viewers now, welcome. 'Cause I like cheesecake, I like it. I don't love it. I like it.

- I would say we're in the minority though, because people love cheesecake.

- I was reporting a story about Wisconsin once, a travel story, and I was going to all these restaurants, you know, like, are these the hot new restaurants? Talking to pastry chefs. And they all told me, they're like, we love working in Wisconsin. We love, you know, the Wisconsin people, but they will not let us take a cheesecake off the menu. Like they revolt, they revolt.

- That doesn't surprise me. It is a cheese state.

- In a cheese state like we're in now, Vermont. But I think it's all 50 states.

- Oh yeah, people love it. You know how, for a while, like every dessert menu, like even without seeing the dessert menu in a certain period of time, you could be like, I know it's on that dessert menu. Like it's an apple tart, it's a lava cake, it's a cheesecake. Like there's sort of a lineup.

- And then, ice cream.

- Ice cream. And I feel like it's hanging on. But you were telling me, I mean, there was a period of time that you committed to a cheesecake.

- I did, yes, right. When I was just a baby, 22 years old, I was living in a studio apartment by myself in Fort Green, Brooklyn, which was not the Fort Green Brooklyn of today. It was kind of a sleepy neighborhood then. But there was one restaurant, not just one, but there was one restaurant with huge blinky lights, neon signs, which was of course Junior's, which is a very famous restaurant. And it was right around the corner from my apartment. And it beckoned me with that neon sign. And of course, Junior's is famous for its cheesecake. You know, it's an iconic cheesecake spot. It has a sponge cake in the bottom instead of a graham cracker crust. It's a classic New York-style cheesecake. And I just thought it was, you know what my dad used to say, tickets. I thought it was tickets. That's what that means. That means it's was great.

- Oh, I love that.

- I thought it was amazing.

- I actually think, and here's where I'm just gonna, you know, be negative again. Like that type of cheesecake that you're describing is actually my least favorite. So the New York cheesecake that you're describing, this one is unusual because of the sponge cake base, but it's like very dense, almost fudgy, very tall, not that sweet actually.

- It's cheesy.

- It's extremely cheesy and it's not my favorite style. But, you know, cakes made with cheese. I think Junior's has perhaps claimed in the past to be the inventor of the cheesecake. I don't know, I mean.

- In our research, we've seen that's not true.

- Yeah, I mean, because cakes, cheesecakes, or at least cakes made with cheese like date, I mean, it's like Roman Empire stuff. Like as long as there's been cheese, people have been making cheesecake. You know, in Italy, they make cheesecake with ricotta. You know, in Germany, they make it with like cottage cheese. So hot right now.

- Quark.

- But that is, I mean, in the trajectory of cheesecake, kind of a modern invention, because you know, cream cheese as we know it, like Philadelphia-style stabilized cream cheese was not invented until I think the 1870s.

- 1872 we have here. And which is crazy because, you know, we think of it as a forever thing.

- What were people, what were people even putting on their bagels before 1920? Because bagels were, well, we have another episode all about bagels, but bagels of course also were invented before 1920. So like what was happening? Buttered bagels?

- Anyway, I actually do love just a buttered bagel.

- Me too, but that's for a different episode.

- Different episode. But you can see the natural progression from cheesecakes that were made with ricotta, quark to those that were made with cream cheese. And what happened, so was European, some European bakers came to the States, especially to New York, German bakers, a lot of German Jewish bakers were bringing this style of cheesecake over. And then cream cheese was invented and then game on.

- Bang, bang, bomb, there you go.

- And then the New York-style cheesecake was invented. So I do think that of course New York did not invent the cheesecake, but New York did invent New York-style cheesecake. Meaning they invented the cheesecake made with cream cheese.

- Right, I mean that's a hallmark, right? I think of a hallmark of a New York cheesecake. Obviously cream cheese, although, I mean, yes, in restaurants in New York you can get ricotta cheese, whatever. But I think of that as cream cheese based. But I think about, you know, before I did all the research about cheesecake, I think of it has having a graham cracker crust. And I'm glad that it has a graham cracker crust 'cause honestly that's really like that sort of layer of like semi-soggy, semi-crunchy.

- You're selling it.

- Graham cracker base is actually the part of cheesecake I like the most. The part of New York cheesecake I like the most.

- So you're like the kid who like just scrapes off the frosting and eats only the frosting. But in this case you're like scraping off all the cheesecake and just eating the graham cracker crust. There's an easier way to eat graham cracker crust.

- I mean, unless it's a cheesecake that this is going to shock you. This is gonna shock the viewers, listeners. I have a very soft spot for that like kind of gross, gloopy, canned cherry pie filling. Like the neon red that kind of like stains the corner of your mouth when you eat it. So if it has like cherry pie filling on top and it has a graham cracker crust, then I'll like the cheesecake once I remove the cheesecake part.

- Yeah.

- You know?

- I mean that's a great segue into like the modern state of, particularly in New York-style cheesecakes, because it's pretty rare that you see someone eating one that's just like the plain vanilla specked slice of cheesecake. They have fruit toppings. They're marble, they have, there's Oreos in them. I mean they have really gone wild.

- Well, 'cause it's sort of a blank canvas, right? I mean that's what the thing is, like you can add almost any flavor to a cheesecake and it's like not gonna be offensive and people do it.

- Yeah.

- I mean I've seen it. But the other thing that I want to say about New York cheesecakes, so a lot of cheesecakes are baked in water baths, but that's not true of all New York-style cheesecakes. A lot of them are just put into the pan and then thrown into a hot oven. And so they puff pretty dramatically. They get brown on top and then they kind of sink. So it has that like brown, almost skin-like crust to it, which is kind of a distinctive feature of a New York cheesecake.

- And of course a water bath is meant to prevent exactly that from happening. The water bath for those viewers who don't know is when you put a cake or any other baked good in a pan of water and slide it into the oven, water of course can't get above 212 degrees. So it keeps the sides and the bottom of the baked good at that temperature or lower. So it's regulating, even if you're oven's at 400 degrees, the sides and the bottom are kept at a lower temperature.

- Well, and it makes sense because cheesecake is essentially a custard, you know, it's cheese and sugar and eggs and egg yolks. And so, you know, you wanna cook it gently because like the risk is that if you're cooking at too high of a heat for too long of a temperature without that insulation, it's gonna curdle. And that's gross.

- That is.

- I think we can both agree.

- That is gross, that is not what you want.

- I mean, and we have recipes, like a lot of recipes for cheesecake on our site because people request them. And we have, you know, like Pumpkin Cheesecakes, we've got like--

- I'm sure we have Chocolate Cheesecake.

- Irish Cream Cheesecake, I think Cannoli Cheesecake, like we have explored a lot of cheesecake possibilities. I mean, and today's guest is Carla Hall, who is like, no stranger to the cheesecake. She's developed lots of cheesecake recipes over the course of her career. You know, lots of variations. And she had some interesting thoughts about like how to tweak sort of the base recipe.

- That's exciting.

- Yeah, it's great.

- I love Carla, she's so sweet. And she's so enthusiastic. Is she more enthusiastic than you about the cheesecake?

- Well, she's more enthusiastic than I am. I'll say that.

- Okay.

- I mean, that's not hard to do. But you know, Carla, of course, she spent seven seasons as the host of The Chew. She's written a bunch of cookbooks. She has a new cookbook coming out this fall called Carla Bakes. And she's also a big fan of King Arthur. And not a big fan of cheesecake. Spoiler. So I want you to hear the conversation between the two of us.

- All right, I'll listen. Let's hear this conversation between two people who do not like cheesecake.

- All right, so you were co-host of The Chew, which is a sort of talk show, cooking show for seven seasons. And my co-host, David Tamarkin said that at one point he talked to you about all of the recipes that you developed during the run of that show. And it was some insane number.

- I bet collectively it was 5,000. For myself individually, it may have been 3,000. I mean, I don't know, because you divide that by five people. And we had multiple dishes on each episode, like at least three, and we did 1,300 episodes.

- 1,300 episodes.

- Yes.

- Oh my God, that sounds tiring. Woo! So, you know, the thing about cheesecake is that it's insanely popular. Like people love cheesecake. The secret's gonna come out at some point in this episode that cheesecake is actually not my top dessert.

- It's not mine either.

- It's not?

- And it's not. However, my husband loves cheesecake.

- My wife loves cheesecake.

- So I think that as somebody who cooks, when you know people who love a thing, it doesn't matter if you like it or not, you want to make it good for them.

- So I imagine in the 3,000 recipes that you did for The Chew, and then you have cookbooks, you have your magazine, you've probably developed a cheesecake or two in your time.

- You know, or 10. Yes. Correct.

- Do you have a favorite cheesecake that you've made or like-?

- Well, I think I have had duds and I think it's when you are rushing and you're whipping and it's too much air.

- Well, let's talk about that whipping thing, because I think that's interesting. You know, you're starting with a cream cheese base cheesecake. So you've got your softened cream cheese in there and you're beating it, but there is a risk of overbeating.

- See, I do not beat now, I use the paddle.

- Oh, okay.

- I do not use the balloon whip, so I'm thinking about doing this in a KitchenAid. All of my ingredients are at room temperature. And I use a paddle because a paddle is going to put in less air. And sometimes when you get a lot of air, that's when you get cracks because you're like, ooh, it has to be smooth. And you're thinking more sauce than cheesecake. You know what I mean?

- I think the cracking is a real pain point for people. So let's talk about that. So overwhipping, getting too much air in it causes your cheesecake to rise in the oven. And then, I mean, collapse is a strong word, but it settles.

- It settles because now you have pockets of air. So basically a cheesecake is a custard. When you think custard, you think gentle or it can crack if it's overbaked.

- Do you bake yours in a water bath?

- I do. 100%.

- That speaks to the custard element of it too, because you've got your cheese, you have your egg yolks.

- Yeah.

- And so I think gentleness is sort of the order of the day as far as like you get that nice sort of even cooking heat, it's gentler than just, you know, throw it in the oven, hoping for the best.

- Exactly, and then the cooling time, there's the mixing, the baking, there's the cooling.

- Yep. Do you keep it in the water bath or do you take it out of the water bath right away?

- So I leave my cheesecake in the oven. I crack the door with a wooden spoon. I bring it down in there. And then once I take it out of the oven, I do take it out of the water bath.

- Okay. But by then the water bath is like room temperature. And then you would chill it.

- For at least six hours.

- And what do you do for the crust?

- I do graham crackers.

- Yeah.

- Sometimes I'm like, oh, I have some ginger snaps. I have some shortbread, so I'll mix it up. I always wanna do the sour cream on top, which he really does not like.

- Okay, so this is a regional variation. Right? So it's a graham cracker crust, dense cream cheese custard, and then a layer of very lightly sweetened sour cream across the top.

- I think the sour cream breaks up the cream cheese. I'm just saying.

- You're like, what this cream cheese needs is a little more dairy.

- But I want that tang so that you're breaking up the richness of the cream cheese. I think, you know, we're talking about sweet cheesecakes, you know, savory cheesecakes are a thing.

- Oh, they are a thing. Are they a good thing?

- All of these baking shows on, it was holiday baking and somebody had done a savory cheesecake. Now we loved it. I don't know if it's because it was savory in the midst of all of the sugar. I am not a fan of blue cheese, but blue cheese with friends and cream cheese. It was gorgeous. It was with candied walnuts and there was honey and there was also fig. I mean, so it was--

- That sounds delicious to me. And I think it could sort of, you know how in the French tradition it's like cheese followed by dessert? Or cheese as dessert. Like I could see that being a very elegant, you know, sort of conclusion. And in some ways, like that makes more sense to me than traditional cheesecake, I guess. So, you know, this episode where you have all of these cheesecakes to judge, like what were the judges sort of looking for? Like what's a perfect cheesecake?

- I think first of all, balance. Sweet, savory, salty, a little bit of bitter. There's a balance in flavor. There's also balance in texture. And I think that's where the crust comes in, where you really wanna have the balance between the right amount of butter and a little bit of sweetness in that crust. When we are doing those shows, it's all about something looking really good. They have the opportunity to not just have a plain cheese cake with fruit on top. So now you're getting into, you get to add texture, you get to add more flavor. That's when you balance it with whatever you put on top of the cheesecake.

- You can hide your shame.

- You can hide your shame, that's a spider crack. Great. If that is a long crack in the middle, if it didn't bake through.

- How do you know when your cheesecake is properly baked? What are you looking for jiggle-wise? Or not jiggle-wise.

- And I'm thinking about, let's say an eight inch/nine inch cheesecake. So those first three inches are set. That middle section is a little jiggly, like Jell-O.

- So the three inches from the size of the pan.

- And then that little disc in the middle, that should still be jiggly. And that's where you turn your oven off.

- Yep.

- You let it cool.

- And unlike other cake where sometimes you say it'll pull away from the sides or dip a toothpick in and test. Like, you can't do that here.

- Well, if you put a toothpick in your cheesecake and you pull it out and it is dry, it's gonna be chalky.

- A chalky cheesecake is a truly sad thing.

- It's a sad thing.

- And there are actually quite a lot of them out there. I feel like I've eaten and maybe that's why I turned against cheesecake. What I was gonna ask you about next is you have a cookbook coming out, your first baking book, Carla Bakes, it's gonna be out this September. Give us a preview of coming attractions. Like talk to me about this book, what you learned in the process of writing a baking book 'cause you know, that's hard. It's different.

- Writing a baking book is hard. And I really thought this one was gonna take me down and I don't have a single cheesecake in them. I know, what, what, what?

- It's like you don't care about your husband at all.

- For me, baking is like casual Friday. I've done all these shows, but I really, I enjoy sweets. It is sweet and savory. It is about making something. I will give you a recipe and list how you can change it.

- So there's a little choose your own adventure element to it.

- Exactly. What took so long, and I'm gonna, is I'm a baking book. Every time that I was doing a recipe, I would, and I'm doing metric as well as cups and everything.

- Good for you, I love to hear that.

- I want the book to come with a freaking scale. I spent the time y'all to do this for you.

- I am with you, I'm with you. That's why baking with a scale is so important. We'll know that when we bake your recipes using your measurements, it's gonna turn out the way that you intended.

- Exactly, it's about ratios.

- I'm so glad that you said that because here at King Arthur, we are big boosters for the scale as the one true way.

- The one true way. And I gotta tell you, I just wanna gush a little bit on the Big King A because when I give my recipes, especially my biscuits, we use King Arthur Flour.

- I love to hear this.

- I do.

- I love it.

- I used the All-Purpose. I was doing biscuits once with a Southern boy and I brought my ingredients. He had a flour that was bleached. And I was like, and I brought mine. He said, oh yeah, I have the, I have the WL. And I'm like, okay. I'm like, well, I brought my flour. And so we did a side by side and no shame, no game, but the nuttiness, the way the biscuits browned, the way they fluff up, he was like, oh, well mine didn't brown. I said, that's 'cause you used that one. Well, mine don't taste nutty. Well, oh, well, I mean, that's because.

- You said it, we didn't even pay you to say this. And I think we all feel proud of making a product that the bakers that we love and admire, like, use and, you know, support. Well, Carla, I'm so glad that you're part of the King Arthur family and it's just a treat to talk to you. Thanks for hanging out with us.

- Thank you.

- This episode is brought to you by King Arthur stores. We're in Vermont now, and of course that's home to our flagship store. But did you know, Jessica? Pop quiz, that we have several popup stores, one in Fairfax, Virginia, or Denver, Colorado, or of course, come right here where we are in Norwich, Vermont. And while you're here, take a baking class, find out about all of our stores at kingarthurbaking.com/visit.

- It's time for our next segment, Ask the Bakers. For Ask the Bakers, we wanna hear from you. If you have a baking question for us, head to kingarthurbaking.com/podcast to record a voice message. And we may end up using it on the show. That's kingarthurbaking.com/podcast.

- And of course, if you have a question that you simply cannot wait, you can always reach out to our Bakers Hotline via phone, email, or online chat. Just go to kingarthurbaking.com/bakers-hotline. That's kingarthurbaking.com/bakers-hotline. Or call us at 855-371-B-A-K-E. That's 371-2253, 2253 as in B-A-K-E.

- Awesome, let's hear our questions.

- Hi, this is Danielle.

- And this is Russell. And we are based in Brooklyn, New York. We just made the Pumpkin Basque Cheesecake. I was very inspired by your fall baking episode, so thank you for that. I loved that for this recipe, we just had to throw all the ingredients into the food processor and let the food processor do the magic. Are there any other recipes like cheesecake recipes specifically where that is how you do it? Russell and I, we're very into making cheesecakes, so would love to experiment there. And why is it called a Basque cheesecake? Like what's the history there? I would love to learn a little bit more about that. And I guess final question. We normally do a water bath with our cheesecake. I noticed in this recipe it didn't specify to do a water bath, so we did not do the water bath. But?

- Would that have made a difference?

- Yeah. Would that have made a difference? All right. That's all for now. But thank you for the podcast. Big fan of King Arthur over here. Bye.

- Bye.

- Those people have only been dating for six months. You don't get that kind of like energy that like, oh, we are so happy. So loving to each other.

- We're making cheesecake together.

- Yeah.

- I like how they're like that's all for now. Like they're gonna be calling back soon. I hope they do. Well, so there were a few things here in this question and one of them, I mean, I too like a recipe where you can throw everything into the food processor. But I think it is worth noting that, you know, some cheesecake recipes have you combining everything in the mixer and you know, some have you combining it in the food processor. And like I talked about with Carla, like the risk of doing it in a mixer is that you introduce a lot of air to the mixture and then, you know, if you add a lot of air, it increases the probability possibility of cracking. So by mixing things in a food processor, like you're not incorporating as much air as you would in a mixer. So that's, you know, part of the reason that that is the technique that we use in the Basque Cheesecake. And you know, the reason it doesn't use a water bath is because the, like, the whole sort of point of a Basque cheesecake, which was invented. I mean it's funny 'cause like most baked goods, it's like, is there a date of invention? Probably not. But Basque cheesecake, there's pretty good intel that was actually invented in a restaurant in San Sebastian, Spain in 1988. So kind of recently.

- It's younger than I am.

- It's just, it's younger than both of us. I know, it's weird.

- That's fascinating because, you know, I just assumed it was something that had been around for a hundred, 200 years or longer.

- And I actually, I don't know, maybe I was gonna say five years, but no, it was longer than five years ago. I was in San Sebastian and even though like, I am not the biggest cheesecake lover, like I felt like I had to make a pilgrimage to this restaurant La Viña, where all they make is Basque cheesecake. And I will say that San Sebastian is everything they say about it and the food there is true. Like the food is truly like, pretty remarkable and special.

- Did even you like the Basque cheesecake?

- I did like it. And it's very deeply caramelized.

- When you get it right, Basque cheesecake is incredible.

- It has the, the sort of dual texture and I really love that burnt sugar flavor and it's not terribly sweet, but you know, those sugars on the outside caramelize and you wouldn't get that in a water bath. You don't want that in like some styles of cheesecake.

- The water bath is there to prevent that from happening.

- Exactly, but the whole, like the whole thing about the Basque cheesecake is that it's got this like caramelized crust. So that's why it just gets thrown. I mean it truly is one of the easiest and hardest to mess up recipes because you combine everything together in a food processor, whiz it up, dump it in, no crust to a Basque cheesecake and then you just blast in the oven. So it's very user friendly.

- Except I would say you, you have to nail the, you have to nail the bake.

- You do have to nail the bake. You do have to nail it. I mean, and that is, if there is a pain point of cheesecake, that is it. Right? Like, and you know, Carla mentioned a good way to tell, like you want, you know, the like two, I think she said three inches from the outer edge of your pan should be like set, you know, when you shake it. But the middle should still be like jiggly, you know?

- That was hard for you to say.

- Well, 'cause I was just thinking about, I was just going down a mental rabbit hole of remembering that one of my first boyfriends had a water bed.

- Oh no.

- Yeah. I should have broken up with him then and there. But I did eventually.

- How long did the relationship last?

- Too long.

- A waterbed.

- I know waterbeds are gross.

- The image of a cheesecake, a perfectly baked cheesecake gave you, sent you back to the waterbed. No wonder you hate cheesecake. Oh my God. Now we're getting to the root of this. I understand now.

- Then I was thinking like waterbeds like are not a thing anymore. Like who has a waterbed?

- I mean listeners call in, I mean, I'm sure.

- Just gonna give a waterbed as like the frame of reference for like how jiggly and then I was like, do people know?

- They know. They know. I like this. So two to three inches solid and then in the middle, waterbed.

- Waterbed.

- Got it.

- And I think that feels stressful to people 'cause you're like, it's still raw on the inside, but you have to remember like that carryover cooking. And we haven't really talked about carryover cooking here, but like, you know, you take something hot outta the oven, it doesn't like immediately cool and stop baking. Like it's going to gradually decrease in temperature. And you know, Carla was saying she cools hers in her water bath in the oven. So like that's a very slow descent. Which A, prevents cracking. But also like, if you've gotten it to set all the way through and then it's sitting in like a slowly cooling oven, like you are definitely gonna overbake it. and an overbaked cheesecake as we said, it can be like very unpleasantly grainy.

- Yeah, the curds form. I mean it's like, it's not pleasant. And I think it's particularly unpleasant with a Basque cheesecake because the whole point of that Basque cheesecake is to have, like you said, that dual texture caramelized on the outside. You know, it's baked firm-ish, but inside should be so silky.

- Custardy.

- Custardy.

- I mean it should just be, and when you nail it, it's ethereal I think.

- So I don't know, did we answer their questions? I think so. I mean, long may they bake cheesecakes together.

- Yeah.

- Call us back with more questions.

- Yeah, I love this couple. I hope they are, I hope they're still together and still baking cheesecakes together. Let's go to our next question.

- [Caller] Hi all. I'm curious on how I can make a lower sugar graham cracker crust for a cheesecake. I find that they're often too sweet and when I cut down on the sugar content, the crust can get pretty crumbly. Thanks for your help.

- Yeah. All right. We get a lot of questions like this at King Arthur. How can I take the sugar out of this? Can I cut the sugar down? If you peruse the reviews of any of our bakers, you will probably find someone in there who has claimed to halve the sugar, you know, and that it worked. And did it work? Yeah. I mean you can do this, as the caller said, you can take the sugar down, but you're gonna end up with a different product. It's gonna be more crumbly. And the reason why the graham cracker crust is going to be more crumbly is because the sugar isn't there to melt and bind it together.

- I mean that's the thing people sort of forget or don't know that sugar is like, it has a functional role.

- It's a tool.

- It's not just for sweetness. And you can't just, you know, you can't just mess around with those ratios and expect that you're gonna get the same thing. You may still get something edible. But it's not gonna be the same thing.

- Yeah. So your first option is, yeah, you can cut the sugar and you'll have a different thing. You'll have a crumbly crust. Sounds like this caller doesn't want that. So your other option I would say is if you wanna reduce the sugar in the crust, find something that has less sugar than a graham cracker. Which is gonna be a little tough because graham crackers aren't particularly sweet. But you could go with a, what's that? Like a salty cracker you could go with, I don't know why this is coming to mind, but you could go with oyster crackers, you could go with, you could go with Ritz.

- I would say Ritz, right?

- Yeah. But I just went to, I don't know why I went to oyster crackers, but you could, you know, any cracker, any cookie will do. So if you wanna find a lower sugar or less sweet.

- Or like a digestive biscuit. You know, like those would be good. And sometimes I think it's not necessarily about like the amount of sugar as noted on the package as it is your perception of sweetness too. Like, you know, you may perceive that like a ginger snap crust tastes less sweet to you. Just because it's got more going on. Like in a graham cracker crust, you know, there's not a ton happening. Like graham crackers are pretty base.

- Spice, molasses, sweetness. Yeah. But yeah, that's a great idea. Tinker with your crust in other ways instead of taking the sugar out. And you also had another very simple idea.

- No crust.

- No crust.

- Just I mean go Basque-style or you know, I think the other option would be like, okay, if you're acknowledging that you like the flavor but not the texture of a lower sugar, you know, graham cracker crust, you could always bake the crust on its own and serve it as like a crumble on top. Like I know that's a different energy.

- Control the amount of, you know, graham cracker crumble that you put on.

- But you're not counting on it to like act as a true crust. You know, and that could be good. You know, you'd get the texture. I mean, as I said, I like the layer where like the cream cheese meets the graham cracker and it gets like a little soggy. But you know, if that's not what you're after, then you could do like some sort of other streusel situation on top that could be lower sugar 'cause you're not then relying on the sugar as the glue.

- Yeah, and so you're making a great point. Cheesecakes do not need a crust. And I think what you're also making a point about is that really the purpose of especially a graham cracker crust is as much about flavor as it is about texture. Because you do want like a textural component to offset the texture of the cheesecake 'cause it is really creamy. So I love your idea of just serving the texture on the side so you can control the sweetness. But that texture element is nice.

- I think it's nice, I mean, and maybe this person wants to mess around with Junior's style and do a sponge cake because those aren't that sweet. And so, you know, that could be worth playing around with too.

- Yeah, so you've got options.

- Got options.

- Well we solved that caller's problems in so many ways.

- I know.

- Let's see if we can do it again. We've got one more.

- Hi King Arthur. I'm wondering what I should do if my recipe calls for a springform pan, but I don't have one. Thank you.

- You go buy one, go to kingarthurbaking.com. No, I don't think--

- Do you own a springform?

- I own.

- Don't mean to put you on blast.

- So many pans I own I think two or three springforms. I do not know how I got into this situation, but there's an entire closet in my apartment that is dedicated to--

- Springforms?

- To springform. To my cooking and baking supplies. And I have plenty of space in my kitchen for that stuff too. And yeah, I have two or three springforms, but if I didn't have a springform pan, I would not let that stop me if I wanted to make a cheesecake.

- I assume our listeners know what a springform pan is, but you know, I mean it's worth, in case you don't know. So it's a, you know, a metal base plate and then it has a ring that is sort of tensioned with a, like a buckle, almost like a belt. And you know, you see it in cheesecake recipes just really because it makes it easier to unmold things that would be harder to turn out of a pan.

- Right. Because you unbuckle the sides and lift it up and you don't have to deal with tipping a cake out of a pan.

- Right. Exactly.

- It's a great thing. It's fun.

- For the things that need it, I think, you know, it's very useful to have, but it's not the only option.

- No, I mean my solution to this would be just to find a pan of the same size if you know it's an eight inch, nine inch, whatever, and just put some parchment down.

- Like a parchment circle.

- Yeah, parchment circle on the bottom of the pan, grease the sides of the pan and make my cheesecake there. It's not going to be as pretty when I, 'cause you're gonna have to then get it out. And you would tip it out and the parchment's gonna make it easy to tip it out and you run a knife, run a knife around the edges to loosen it. I would do this when it's cold. It's gonna be easier. More firm. But the top is probably gonna get a little mangled. Because you're gonna have to flip it and then put it back.

- Yeah, this is where the canned cherry pie filling comes in.

- You're just looking for any reason to get it in. But yes, but absolutely. You top it with something.

- Well, and I think you also, you know, springform pans are typically quite deep. You know, sometimes they're three or four inches deep. So that is one thing to be mindful of because you know, obviously you want to give room for the cheesecake to expand. So you would want a deep round cake pan. I would say like, you want more like three inch sides. 'cause otherwise you're gonna be in a world of hurt. That's gonna overflow. And that it's gonna be a bummer.

- If you have just a shallow one. I would abandon ship. Or I'd make cheesecake bars.

- Oh yeah. We have a great recipe for Cheesecake Bars. And then we also have a recipe for No-Bake Chocolate Cheesecake Bars on our site too, which have a chocolate cookie crust. And I think that is a good solution.

- Well, anyway, the point is.

- What is the point?

- Don't let anything stop you from making a cheesecake. You have lots of options. So how are we doing, how are you feeling about cheesecake now, now that we've talked about it for half an hour?

- You know, this often happens when we record these that I'm like, you know what, I can actually go for a slice of, I could go, maybe I was just being a curmudgeon.

- This is amazing, you've been converted.

- All this talk about waterbeds. I'm on board.

- Although I do think it's time for you to don't stop being a curmudgeon yet, because every episode we like to check in with Jessica and see what wildly surprising and full-throated opinions are in her head. A segment we call Jess Opinions for our first Jess Opinion of season three. Jessica, what do you have?

- Well, I think my initial offering here was to say, I was like, I'm just, my opinion is that I don't like cheesecake.

- You've delivered that one many times already.

- I delivered early. And I don't think that's entirely--

- Old news.

- I don't think that's entirely true. But you know what, we haven't talked about a cheesecake that I think breaks the mold. And one that I do like very much, and I think of as like a cake made with cheese, maybe not a cheesecake, is the Japanesestyle souffle cheesecakes, which--

- Aren't those called cotton cheesecakes?

- Cotton cheesecakes, yeah. You know, and they tend to be tall like a Basque cheesecake and like very fluffy and light and like, almost like a plush texture. Like none of that sort of fudgy denseness that I was objecting to earlier when we were talking about the New York ones where I was like, it's like peanut butter on the roof of your mouth. Like it's not quite, you know, it's not as silky as a Basque cheesecake, but it has this like lovely fluffy texture and those, I really do like the Japanese-style cheesecake. And we do have a recipe on our site for that style of cheesecake. And that I think is a worthy endeavor. I think that if you've never had that style before, I think they're fun to make and fun to eat. And like a total departure from like what we think of as cheesecake.

- And real quick, what gives them that texture? Are the egg whites, is it souffle sort of, or the egg whites are beat into medium peaks or whatever.

- Yeah.

- Or stiff.

- I should look at our recipe.

- We'll look at the recipe. We'll follow up in the next episode.

- We'll actually put a link to that cheesecake recipe in the show notes. We'll put a link to the Pumpkin Basque Cheesecake that we talked about. I mean, I suppose we could throw in a classic New York-style Cheesecake recipe there too.

- We'll put all those recipes, not just in the show notes, in the Substack.

- In the Substack. Yeah, yeah. Maybe I'll go even deeper on my pros and cons about cheesecake on Substack.

- Listeners, please sign up for the Substack. We're almost done with this episode. But first Jessica, I have to ask you a very important question. What are you baking this week?

- Well, we have a major holiday coming up here on Things Bakers Know. Big time, and I'm not talking about Easter.

- I was thinking it was Easter, yeah.

- And I'm not talking about Passover.

- Or Passover.

- Your birthday.

- That's right.

- Sweet 16.

- Thank you for remembering.

- Coming right up.

- That's right.

- Gimme those keys.

- Yeah. So you know, I mean, I wouldn't be a good co-host if I wasn't going to, you know, bake you a birthday cake for your birthday.

- Oh, thank you.

- I mean, I'm not going to, no. I was thinking back to our birthday cake episode. when you were talking about death cakes.

- As you know, I celebrate my death day.

- And you and I are the same age. So this is not a milestone birthday yet. But I was thinking about like, you know, like what's like a death cake, but not as depressing.

- Okay, yes. And yeah, it would be great for me to not be asked to press this question.

- Yeah, and I was thinking about, it's a very beloved recipe on our site, but that Favorite Fudge Birthday Cake, have you ever made that one? Have you ever eaten that one?

- No.

- So it's a very deep chocolate, you know, layer cake and chocolate frosting, chocolate between like a ganache frosting. And it's two layers that you split. So it's like a very, I think it's very, it's a four layer chocolate on chocolate and you know, maybe I'll put some sprinkles on there for you.

- Thank you.

- You know, some ice cream on the side, I don't know.

- When is this happening? I'm gonna be there. Please let me know. That would be an appropriate moment for my birthday.

- Are you gonna bake something for your own birthday?

- Look, I am pleased to report. I'm sure you'll be pleased to hear.

- Okay.

- I'm still on my protein journeys. I don't know if I've ever talked about this on the show.

- You and the rest of the US of A.

- Yes. I eat our Super Protein Pancakes, which is a--

- Oh yeah.

- Recipe on our site. The pancakes have oats, they have four eggs, which is more eggs than a typical pancake, uses our oat flour, I use our oat flour.

- And our oats are also a higher protein oat. Like our rolled oats have more protein than your average oat.

- Yeah, and lots of cottage cheese. And to your point, these are a little dense. All protein pancakes are a little dense. It is power, thank you. Why did I thank you. I don't know.

- You're welcome.

- I have started whipping the egg whites separately, so sort of like the cotton cheesecake. I just wanted them to have a little bit more lift, a little bit more airiness. So it's an extra step. It's casual, it's a casual whip just to get some air in it. So that's what I'll be eating this week.

- I like those with like a smear of almond butter or peanut butter, more protein.

- Yes, absolutely, yeah.

- We also have, you know, just a shout out to the protein people out there. You know, God bless you all. We also have these new Egg Bites on the site, which are quite good. Also starring cottage cheese, cottage cheese eggs. And they're very versatile. They're made in a, like a, you know, in muffin tins, like kind of like the ones from that coffee chain that everyone's obsessed with. So.

- That one.

- That one.

- As always, I mean it's really fun to do this in person, you know?

- It turned out it is fun to do it in person.

- I mean I liked doing it in my remote prepper shed in my Maine woods, but I feel like this is more in the spirit of things. And thank you as ever to our listeners for joining us here on Things Bakers Know season three.

- Remember to like and subscribe wherever you're listening, whether that's YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon.

- And leave us a review while you're there or share this episode and/or share this episode with a friend.

- Right, right, you can do both.

- You can do both.

- And remember people in the meantime, don't forget, follow the recipe.

- Follow the recipe.

- Things Bakers Know is hosted and executive produced by me, David Tamarkin.

- [Jessica] And me, Jessica Battilana.

- [David] Rossi Anastopoulo is our senior producer. Chad Chenail is our producer. And Marcus Bagala is our engineer. Original music by Megan and Marcus Bagala.

- [Jessica] Thanks again to Carla Hall for appearing on this episode. You can find more information about Carla and her work at carlahall.com.

- [David] Things Bakers Know is a King Arthur Baking Company Podcast.