All about birthday cake, featuring Cheryl Day and Bronwen Wyatt

David: And yet the older I get, the more my birthday cakes look like something you would serve at a funeral.

Jessica: From King Arthur Baking Company, this is Things Bakers Know. I'm Jessica Battilana, Staff Editor at King Arthur Baking.

David: And I'm David Tamarkin, King Arthur's Editorial Director.

Jessica: And today we're talking about a very important topic: birthday cake.

David: Never had one. Fun fact, never had one. No. Wouldn't that be sad?

Jessica: That would be so sad. I'd head over to your house immediately to make you one.

I feel like the world is divided into two kinds of people, pie people and cake people, and I think, you know, which camp you fall in says a lot about you. I'm not gonna tell you what I think it says about you, but I think it says a lot about you.

David: Okay.

Jessica: I am definitely a cake person. Uh, I love cake for all occasions, but certainly for birthdays, like a birthday to me is not a birthday unless you've got cake.

David: Birthday pie is —

Jessica: It's kind of sad.

David: Sad, yeah.

Jessica: Yeah. A cake is what makes a party a party, I think. And I was fortunate that when I was growing up, my mother made scratch cakes for all of our birthdays. You know, she didn't do elaborate decorations, anything like that, but she made a solid scratch cake for each of her three children on their birthdays.

Did anyone make her a cake? Who can recall? I'm sorry, mom. With the exception of going to other kids' birthday parties, all of the cakes that we ate as kids were scratch cakes. And then, you know, we'd go to other kids' parties, and they would have store-bought cakes or box cakes.

David: Like those big, those sheet cakes with white icing. That's like, almost like whipped cream. Very, very, very light, right, from the grocery store.

Jessica: Very light. Yeah.

David: Very sugary. Like gritty. But I'm into it. I can't lie. I mean, I'll eat it.

Jessica: My mom's cakes, she would always wrap a quarter in a piece of tinfoil. And then she would slide the quarter into the cake before she frosted it, and then the whole cake would get frosted. Kind of like a, a feve in a king cake. And so then, you know, when you're cutting up the cake, if you were the person that got the wrapped-up quarter in there, you would feel extra special and super lucky.

David: That’s so cute.

Jessica: I know. Also maybe a choking hazard, but you know. I sort of just remember the excitement of like, oh, who's gonna get it?

You know? And I think that is the thing about birthday cakes, whether they're store-bought birthday cakes, box cakes, homemade cakes, they just inspire such nostalgia. Because we remember them as some of the first sweet things we had as kids.

David: Yeah. My mom also made all my birthday cakes growing up. She didn't slip quarters into them because we were very choking hazard aware in my house. We had signs all over like what to do if you see someone. But when we were planning this episode, a different memory popped up for me and it was one that I didn't even realize was still rattling around in my old brain. And it's the memory of the cake that my first boyfriend made for me when I turned 23 years old, and I was just a baby.

And it was straight from the cover of Gourmet Magazine. It was a classic yellow cake chocolate frosting. And I remember going into his apartment, he didn't mention the cake, I saw it on the counter. He just kind of let me find it. And just the feeling of, wow, you made that for me. Like I was like, so, I was so touched. I mean, and that's the, that is the power of a birthday cake. Now listen, I've since found out that he makes that birthday cake for his current husband, which is,

Jessica: You weren't as special as you thought.

David: Not great for my memories. Yeah, right. But whatever. I got it first.

Jessica: Amazing. I mean, I have made a lot of birthday cakes for former partners and with various degrees of success. I feel like it's kind of a high stakes thing to do, and you're right, it's a total act of love to make a birthday cake for somebody else. And you know, this birthday cake tradition is, is not new. If in 15th century Germany, if you had any extra money at all, you might have actually purchased a birthday cake.

That's sort of where, you know, lore says that birthday cakes got their origins. They weren't like the cakes that we think of today. They were single-layer cakes. Likely quite dense, likely lightly sweetened because sugar was expensive. You know, there was no commercial leavener, so you were at the whims of, you know, natural leavening or perhaps unleavened. And also sadly no frosting. So —

David: These sound gross.

Jessica: It's a birthday cake, I think, in name alone. It's not really one that resembles what we have for birthdays today. I think that tradition really started during the Industrial Revolution because sugar became cheaper. Industrial milling made white flour available to the masses. I'm sure the 15th century cakes were made with some stone-ground, real nutty flour.

David: They had texture.

Jessica: Exactly. And then commercial leveanings became introduced. Of course, let's not forget about the reliability of ovens. You know that you weren't baking in a wood-fired oven anymore, which made it much more possible to have, you know, a cake that turned out well every time. And then by the time we get to the 1930s, box cake mixes were invented. And then after World War II, of course, they started to be aggressively marketed, uh, as a convenience product to housewives. And people definitely took the, the bait on that because now they're a party staple.

And you see everything from like the sprinkle laden funfetti cakes to themed sheet cakes, you know, from Fudgy the Whale to those beautiful buttercream dream cakes. But like I said earlier, like I just feel like it's not a birthday unless there's cake.

David: You and I agree on that. I'm sure we're gonna get some emails advocating for the pie. I think even one of our producers of the show might be a pie for a birthday person. But we'll, we'll talk to you later, Rossi. Although I will say, I think you and I like similar birthday cakes, but there's a lot of reimagining of birthday cakes happening out there in the world. They're getting bigger, they're getting more elaborate.

They're breaking out of the chocolate, vanilla flavor mold. Uh, over the last year, I feel like you and I and everyone at, at King Arthur has been noticing so much cake innovation in general, just from like giant sheet cakes, served in parks at huge picnics, flavored with everything you can imagine. You know, fig leaves, tea, black sesame.

Meanwhile, I wonder if the classic traditional birthday cake has actually been a little diminished. They've become every day. I was in the grocery store the other day, I saw birthday cake Oreos. A new restaurant just opened in Brooklyn and their main dessert is birthday cake. You know, how many people are actually eating that on their birthday?

Jessica: Yeah I call foul.

David: Yeah, right. These things are clearly not meant to be reserved for your actual birthday. It's meant to give you a birthday moment in an otherwise normal day.

Jessica: We could all use a birthday moment in a regular day. A moment of joy, right?

David: Yeah, no, I'm, I'm not against it. I'm into it, but it does leave open the question. Okay, so where does that leave the birthday cake? So where does that leave birthday cake for you, Jessica?

Jessica: I think a sheet cake is such a great choice for a birthday cake. I think they are easier to make and frost. No, I know they're easier to make and frost. It's not that I think. Because you know, you're not trying to stack layers. You have this like nice canvas sort of to work with. They feed a crowd. Um, sheet cakes were once the domain of grocery store bakeries, they weren't fancy, right? Like people would have a wedding cake and in the back they have the sheet cake to cut up, like it wasn't the showpiece cake. But that has totally changed.

And now lots of bakeries make these really beautiful lavishly decorated sheet cakes, you know, with squiggles, with fresh flowers, with fruit. So I don't think, you know, there was a time that maybe a sheet cake was sort of looked down upon as less than a layer cake. But I think sheet cakes have come into their own and I'm happy also 'cause I think the ratio of cake to frosting in a sheet cake to me is like, just right.

David: I was just gonna ask about. See it gets a little problematic for me, but I do love a sheet cake. But am I hearing you correctly? For you a birthday cake is a sheet cake.

Jessica: I mean, I like a sheet cake. What is a birthday cake? And these are existential questions that —

David: Well for you. For you, Jessica.

Jessica: Well, if you, you want to know what my favorite birthday cake is?

David: Yeah.

Jessica: Well, it, it's not a sheet cake. The cake that I request for my birthday is a coconut cake. A yellow cake.

David: You know I, I know a very good recipe for a coconut sheet cake.

So that totally resonates with me. Sheet cake is birthday cake, layer cake is birthday cake. And yet the older I get, the more my birthday cakes look like something you would serve at a funeral.

I mean, I want, I just want like really sleek, sexy, dark birthday cakes. I want like a single layer of flourless chocolate cake, maybe with even like maybe like doubling down on the chocolate, tripling down on the chocolate by adding like a shiny glaze. Like, I just want, like, I don't know. I just want something very, um, very intense. And very sleek is the word that comes to mind.

Jessica: I mean, it's a shame you weren't born in 15th century Germany. You know, you, you could have the austere cake of your —

David: Right? Yeah. I just wanna just have a, have a sugarless chocolate cake. It's just basically like solid coffee.

Jessica: Like to me, what you're describing sounds delicious. It also does not sound like a birthday cake, but then I think like maybe this is the whole point that a birthday cake should be the choice of the of the person whose birthday it is.

David: You did not say that with much conviction.

Jessica: No, I, I think that's true. Like you should get to choose, I get to pick my birthday cake, coconut. You pick your death cake. And you know, and that's part of like, the joy of it is that you can put in this request and have the request met. And maybe you can do that on other days if you have kinder people in your life. But I feel like you get a guaranteed to get your wish on your birthday, right?

David: Absolutely. I think the birthday cake should be dictated by the birthday person. I also think it's 100% okay, and even a flex, for the birthday person to make their own birthday cake.

Jessica: Oh no.

David: And I know that, oh no, this hear me out. I know there's this, this idea out there that the birthday cake is made with love from somebody else. But if you make your own birthday cake, it's sort of like an appreciation for yourself. It's an act of self-love, which are words I don't even like, like hearing come outta my mouth. Um, but it, but it's an act. I don't know. I think it's a real act of just giving yourself what you want. And I think, I think that's something that people need more practice doing.

Like leaning into getting what you want and doing it for yourself. Sisters are doing it for themselves on their birthday. They're making their own birthday cake. I'm into it.

Jessica: I am not into it. I mean, I appreciate the sentiment, but I think, and maybe this is because I'm a person that, you know, makes food for my household, you know, day in, day out. I feel like part of the magic for me of a birthday cake is that it's made for you by somebody who loves you or barring that it's ordered for you by somebody who loves you. And I actually like, I have such like fondness, sort of like it makes my heart feel squishy to like imagine a very humble, sort of poorly executed, slightly wonky, poorly frosted, home-baked birthday cake. I love those.

David: You’d rather have a bad birthday cake made for you than make a good one for yourself.

Jessica: I think I would, yeah, I think I would.

David: I respect that. I just want a good birthday cake, so if no one's around, if you can't bake for me, I'm just gonna bake it myself. Luckily, I'm married to a man who does know how to bake, so we don't have that problem.

Jessica: See it worked out for you, from your first boyfriend to your husband. You know, the throughline has been, you —

David: — gotta bake a cake.

I, I, you know, I think you talked to some interesting people about this subject. I dunno if you got to this topic, but you've talked to a couple people who bake other people birthday cakes for a living.

Jessica: I did. Yeah, I, uh, one thing that we haven't fully acknowledged is that making a birthday cake for somebody else can feel like a high-pressure situation. And so, I wanted to talk to some people who have made a career out of making birthday cakes. So we have Cheryl Day, uh, who ran the legendary Back in the Day bakery for years in Savannah, Georgia. And Bronwen Wyatt, the baker behind Bayou Saint Cakes in New Orleans joining us on the show. And I think together, I dunno, we get into it, but they have baked like thousands and thousands and thousands of cakes. So if anybody knows what to do and what not to do, it's the two of them.

David: I love both of these bakers. I have so much admiration for, I'm obsessed with Cheryl Day, and I have been watching Bronwen Wyatt make cakes on Instagram for years and coveting them, so I can't wait to hear this conversation.

Jessica: Today I am joined by Cheryl Day, who ran the legendary back in the Day Bakery for 22 years in Savannah, Georgia. She's also a bestselling cookbook author, a frequent guest on television and on podcasts.

Cheryl: Oh, excited to be here.

Jessica: And she's joined by our friend Bronwen Wyatt, the baker behind Bayou Saint Cakes in New Orleans, which she shuttered last year in favor of a new career in food writing. She writes an amazing newsletter called Bayou Saint Newsletter, and I consider Bronwen to be a baking trend soothsayer. So I'm really excited to have you here to sort of shed some light on, on what you see, you know, ahead in the world of cakes.

Bronwen: Thank you so much for having us.

Jessica: So how many cakes do you guys conservatively, how many cakes do you think you've made in your careers?

Bronwen: Oh my gosh. I would say like at least five or 6,000. Cheryl, you've been doing this much longer, so you —

Cheryl: I mean a lot of cake, a lot of cakes. 22 years just at the bakery. And then, you know, baking before that. And I mean, I am definitely, even now that the bakery's closed, I like to be really, you know, it's a way that I can be a part of my community and I'm a cake lady, so I bake a lot of cakes.

Jessica: Southern bakers are known for their cakes, right?

Cheryl: Absolutely.

Jessica: I'm actually curious to know why you think that is, because you often hear about church cakes or Southern cakes as being sort of the archetype of a beautiful fluffy layer cake.

Cheryl: Bronwen, you wanna go first? 'cause I may go long. I could go hard on this question.

Bronwen: I would imagine, but I think you, you're pretty spot on when you talk about like church cake culture, I think that's a big part of it. You know, obviously the South has a pretty strong religious tradition, but I would say too, that, and maybe I might just say it has something to do with our more seasonable climate, but there are a lot of gatherings here and there's a lot of opportunities for bringing a baked good together to join together with a larger group of people. And that could also perhaps be one reason.

Cheryl: Yeah, it's really big. And you know, for me personally, in Black culture cakes go back. I mean, it's a, you know, it's a, a way to tell stories. There's folklore and there's legend that go around the baking of cakes. And it has a lot of history tied to it.

So cakes are really important in Black culture. And I think that does, you know, kind of go into Southern culture as well. But for me personally, it's, it's definitely a big part of, you know, telling stories.

Jessica: Okay. Well imagine you have, like, say you're a beginner baker. Say you're a person that's always baked box cakes and you're like, I wanna try to make a cake from scratch.

Like, where would you suggest people start? 'Cause I do think there is the problem of people like wanting to run before they can walk, right? Like they, you know, they see something on Instagram, they're like, I'll make that thing.

Bronwen: I would start with a single layer cake. I think they can look just as beautiful as a dramatic layer cake, but it takes out so much of the opportunity to fail when you don't have to stack for the first time.

Jessica: Yeah.

Bronwen: And it really allows you to focus on making sure your ingredients are mise-ed out correctly, like making sure that everything's the right temperature, like really slow down and focus on the basics.

Jessica: And when you say ingredients are mise-ed out properly, you mean like you have them like measured or weighed and like ready to use?

Bronwen: Exactly. I think if you don't jump directly into a complex baking project, um, it just gives you a lot more time to learn what you're doing without fearing that you're gonna mess up something that's a little bit too complicated.

Jessica: Yeah. Yes, absolutely. I think that's probably sound advice.

Cheryl: I agree. And I think like a one bowl simple cake, like oil based, you know, all the great olive oil cakes that are out there. I just think those are so easy and I think really, I mean, it's just, to me, if it's especially those kind of cakes, to me that's as easy as making a box cake, you know? And you know what you're putting in.

I think the main thing is to like, you know, Bronwen said, get everything together, mise everything out, be prepared so you're not, you know, you're not making that cake for the first time for a big event. I mean, I think that's just, you know, that's just shooting yourself in the foot. That is not nice to you.

Bronwen: I would also say for first time bakers, do not ignore the recommended pan size in the recipe that you're using. I feel like that's like a really big place I see a lot of people where they're like, oh, I didn't have a nine-inch pan, so I used an eight inch one. And then the cake was like dry and burnt on the outside and too custardy on the inside, and it's like, well, the pan size really lends, um, like a lot of, uh, structure to the cake. It allows it to bake correctly and within the allotted timeframe. Like it's actually a really important thing that unless you're a little bit more experienced, you shouldn't play around with too much.

Jessica: Oh, yes. What are some easy but impactful decorations that you like to do? Like if somebody is not like, so, you know, confident in their piping skills, what's a way to decorate a cake that will still look really nice and special, but maybe is like a lower lift?

Bronwen: I think with a one-layer cake, like an olive oil cake, you can achieve a lot of really pretty effects of just confectioners’ sugar. So maybe you lay out parchment paper over the top of the cake with like stripes and then dust your confectioners’ sugar on that. Remove the parchment paper and you have this really dramatic visual effect for like almost no time or money. And then you could just like place like a few little beautiful berries or slices of citrus. Um, and you'd have a really like visually stunning cake without even having to pick up a piping bag.

Jessica: Yeah. 'cause I get anxious about the piping. I think a lot of people get anxious about the piping.

Cheryl: I mean, I think the priority is, definitely, the priority is for it to taste good. So start there. Before you even move on to, you know, how you're gonna decorate it and all of that.

Jessica: Absolutely. So good quality ingredients then, and like a recipe that you can trust, right. You're not like pulling something random off of the internet and hoping for the best.

Cheryl: Oh no, no random.

Jessica: You're going to your Treasury of Southern Baking, Cheryl, and picking out a, like a, a good recipe. But actually Bronwen, I would love to hear you talk a little bit about what kind of trends you think you're seeing in cakes right now.

Bronwen: I'd say the big ones we saw like a huge explosion of people using, you know, so-called ancient grains during the pandemic. And I think we're still seeing that carrying through, especially more in sweeter applications, not just these gorgeous rustic loaves of bread that people have been baking. So you're seeing cakes made with rye flour, with buckwheat, with einkorn flour. I think that is still a very strong trend.

Obviously the fresh floral botanical garnishes, we're moving a little bit away from things having to look incredibly perfect. We're seeing much more like organic shapes and cakes, so they're not all just like round or square. Some of them look like mounds of rocks, some of them look like clouds. There's a lot of really gorgeous creativity in that space happening right now. And I would say too, I think that a fascination with unusual citrus is still something that we're seeing a lot of. So yuzu is incredibly popular right now. Calamansi lime is gonna be, I think, continue to be really trendy. I think people are really into bright puckery flavors right now.

Jessica: Oh, interesting. And I feel like Cheryl, you know, you sort of come from, you know, I think maybe a different perspective because I, when I think about the cakes, you know, the cakes that are in your book, the cakes that I have, you know, seen you post, the cake recipe that you have on the King Arthur site for your coconut cake, I think about them as, as pretty classic and pretty traditional. Is that ... ?

Cheryl: Yeah, I definitely do lean to classic flavors. I mean, I definitely like to play around with flavor and make each ingredient the best it can be. But I, yeah, I'm a classic, I'm a classic cake kind of girl.

Jessica: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Oh man. I wish that we could just hang out and talk all afternoon, but I suppose I've gotta let you two go.

Big thanks to today's guests. You can find Bronwen on Instagram at Bayou Saint Cake, where you can also sign up for her fabulous newsletter. Cheryl Day is @CherylDay on Instagram, and you can find some of her recipes on King Arthur's website, also linked in the show notes. Cheryl, Bronwen, thank you so much for talking cakes with me today.

Cheryl: Aw, thanks so much for having us. This was fun.

Bronwen: Yes, thank you.

David: This episode is brought to you by the tools and ingredients you need to make your best birthday cake, all of which you'll find on kingarthurbaking.com. We've got pans and parchment plus key decorating tools like our new offset spatulas.

Jessica: God, I love those. I use my offset spatula I think every day.

David: Every day? Okay.

Jessica: Yes. To spread butter on toast, to help my kids pry apart their Lego bricks.

David: Oh, nice.

Jessica: It's really a multipurpose tool.

David: Back to the ad. We also have recipes. Try our Classic Birthday Cake, which was our 2019 Recipe of the Year, or Cheryl Day’s Old Fashioned Coconut Cake, which I know, Jessica, is a cake that you love.

And for you mix bakers out there, we have plenty of those too. I love our chocolate cake mix. I make it all the time and honestly, it makes me feel like every day is my birthday. So make every day your birthday over at kingarthurbaking.com.

Well, I know our listeners have some burning questions about not burning their cakes, so let's go into Ask the Baker. For Ask the Baker, we wanna hear from you. Maybe you have a baking question that's stumping you. If so, head to kingarthurbaking.com/podcast to record a voice message, and we may end up using it on the show. That's kingarthurbaking.com/podcast.

Jessica: And of course, if you have a baking question that simply cannot wait, you can always reach out to our Bakers Hotline via phone, email, or online chat. Just go to kingarthurbaking.com/bakers-hotline. That's kingarthurbaking.com/bakers-hotline. Or call us (855) 371-2253. That's 2 2 5 3 as in BAKE.

David: Let's hear our first question.

Caller: Hi. So I have a question about cake flour and how much it actually makes a difference when you're baking things like birthday cakes. Um, how is it different and why is it so important?

David: I'm gonna let you take this one, Jessica.

Jessica: I mean, it's a great question and I'm sure it's a question a lot of people have because the flour literally has cake in the name, right? So you think like, of course it's gotta be the choice for a cake recipe. And you know what distinguishes cake flour from say, all-purpose flour or bread flour is the amount of protein in that flour. So, King Arthur's cake flour has a protein content of 10% compared to our all-purpose flour, which has a protein content of 11.7%, and then bread flour has higher still.

And the lower protein content in a cake flour means that it has less gluten forming potential. And of course, like gluten are the web of strands that give a cake structure. You, you need some gluten in order to make a cake rise and behave like you want a cake to behave. But you don't want so much gluten that it makes the crumb of your cake tough, right? So that's why you don't see a cake recipe that calls for bread flour, because that would produce too much gluten in the batter and make it really tough and have a, you know —

David: Like chewy. Like you don’t want to chew on your birthday cake.

Jessica: No you don't. Uh, but all-purpose flour and cake flour, conversely, because they have the lower protein, like they give you a cake that has like that nice kind of tender crumb, and so can you substitute all-purpose flour in a recipe that calls for cake flour? Yes, I think you can do that and you'll have success. You know, it might be slightly less tender, but you know, it's not going to make a significant difference.

But I wouldn't swap in say, bread flour for cake flour. Because there you definitely will notice a difference. It will be a tougher cake. Yeah. So cake flour, great for cakes, but not essential for cakes.

David: Yeah. Let's hear from our next caller.

Caller: Hi there. I wanted to ask why my, uh, cake felt flat as a pancake as soon as I took it out of the oven. It was a, uh, scratch cake, chocolate. And it rose up real pretty in the oven and then I took it out of the oven. Next thing I know, it's flat as pancake. So it was a, uh, chocolate cake recipe. I checked the, uh, baking powder, it was still fuzz, fizzing around. And, uh, I'm just kind looking for some clues about why I had to eat chocolate pancakes. Thanks, bye.

David: I mean, I understand why she's frustrated, but chocolate pancakes sound good.

Jessica: Yeah, but not when you're hoping for a cake. Right?

David: Not when you're hoping for a cake, but just saying. I might have to make those, uh, this weekend. You know, she checked her baking powder and that was a smart thing to do because the first culprit is the leavening. So checking the powder is a smart thing to do, and the fact that her baking powder is still alive, still kicking makes me think that perhaps there's too much of it in this recipe, or maybe she's putting it in a little too generously, and I would recommend pulling back on that. Because what happens when you have too much leavening in the cake, no matter where it comes from, is that you can get that kick to rise too high, and then it leads to a great fall. That's actually life advice too, you know? Don't get, don't, you know, stay humble. So that would be my first course of action is to pull back on the baking powder, see if that makes a difference.

Jessica: I'm impressed that she thought to check the leavener, though. Who amongst us does that? I, I never do. I always just, I just hope for the best.

David: I do. But it's because my leaveners are from like 2015. And honestly they're still kicking, but you gotta check.

Jessica: You should treat yourself.

David: I know, to a 99 cent box of baking powder. I don't know, Jessica, maybe next year, maybe for my, maybe it's a birthday gift.

Jessica: I also think sometimes, you know, and this has happened to me, like, because she says that it was rising beautifully in the oven, you know, it's possible that she took it out of the oven a little too soon before the cake structure has set up entirely. So if the cake's just a little bit under baked, it's like, looks great. And maybe you've done the toothpick test, which I sometimes think is not as reliable as you want it to be, but what I look for with doneness is like a cake that's sort of pulling away from the sides of the pan. And then I'll, I'll press gently on the, the center of the, the layer and just like it should spring back a little bit. You know, you want it to, you don't want it to sink in. And so I wait for those signs of doneness before I pull it out, because if you pull it out before it's really truly set, like it'll look great. And then as it cools wa-wa-wa, where it just collapses. It's happened to me and it's such a bummer.

David: It's such a bummer. The pat test, the gentle press in the middle, is so key and I, I understand why you don't always trust the toothpick test, but I just wanna tell bakers, if you have not sort of gotten used to the feel of a well baked cake in the oven, get used to it, it's, it's so helpful.

And if neither of those things worked, break out the maple syrup.

Jessica: Oh yeah. Break out the maple syrup. Yeah, exactly.

David: Let's go to our next caller.

Caller: Sometimes I see bakers talk about reverse creaming. What exactly does that mean and why does it make good cake?

David: Ugh. You hear bakers talk about reverse creaming because it's one of the best things ever.

I love a reverse creamed cake. And I'm gonna, you know, and I don't think I really understood just how delicious and, and the impact of reverse creaming until our 2022 Recipe of the Year, which was a coffee cake that used reverse creaming, the texture on a reverse cream cake is, I mean, it's, it's buttery.

Jessica: Dense, but not in a bad way. I feel like that, like a tightly knit crumb, but it retains some like plushness.

David: It's decadent in a way. It's everything.

Jessica: Yes. Will you tell people that don't know what reverse creaming is? And how and why you do it.

David: Yes. So reverse, so many traditional cakes start by creaming the butter and the sugar, and the point of creaming the butter and sugar is to incorporate some air into the cake that helps it rise. With reverse creaming, you cream the butter and the flour and the other dry ingredients first.

This can be counterintuitive because we're all told for good reason to not overwork our flour because then gluten will form and as Jessica was just talking about with cake flour, it can lead to a texture that you don't want. However, when you cream butter and flour together, the butter coats the flour and therefore prevents gluten from forming when you add the wet ingredients.

So that's the trick here. Reverse creaming, which is also known as the paste method, prevents gluten formation resulting in a more tender cake. It is a texture unlike other cakes, and it's delicious. One other thing about reverse creaming is that the cakes tend to dome less, which can be a benefit if you're trying to stack them.

Jessica: Yeah, and I think reverse creaming is a fun technique to try if you haven't tried it before, because it does really give you a cake texture unlike any other.

David: Shout out to Rose Levy Beranbaum, who really spread the word about this technique. If you wanna try reverse creaming, King Arthur's Vanilla Birthday Cake and Tender White Cake are two great options. We'll put those recipes in the show notes for you.

Jessica: Good luck.

David: Every episode, we like to check in with Jessica to see what wildly surprising and full-throated ideas are in her head. But today we're going to a different person for these wildly surprising and full-throated opinions. It's not Jessica, but it's Jessica's protege, Rossi Anastopoulo, also our podcast producer. Rossi, before you give us your Jess-opinion, I have to ask, were you this opinionated before you started working with Jessica?

Rossi: No, it's definitely rubbed off. I've learned from the best.

Jessica: This will be my legacy.

David: Yeah, I can vouch for that because I knew you for a full year before Jessica joined the team and you were much more mild-mannered. And now look at you. You're coming on the podcast with a hot take on cake. What is it?

Rossi: Yes. So I know our whole episode is about birthday cake, but I'm here to argue that birthday pie is better than birthday cake.

Jessica: Oh boy.

David: Okay, so we already established at the beginning of the episode that this is not okay. So ...

Jessica: Shots fired.

Rossi: I heard that and I said, no, no, no. They cannot get away with this. Someone needs to defend pie and I am here. I am a little bit biased. I did write a whole book about pie. Also the first baked good I ever learned to make was a birthday pie for my dad.

Jessica: There's no such thing. Okay. But go on.

Rossi: But I would like to establish, I think birthday pie is better for several reasons. And here's a key one. I actually am not arguing for a double crusted pie. I'm arguing for a single crusted custard, or no bake, or like pudding pie. Because I think they’re so much easier to decorate with less skill. Think about like how hard it is to stack and decorate a layer cake. Even a cake, a single layer cake, like getting the frosting to have those artful swoops is really hard. Like it always looks a little bit shabby, but if you put like just like a mound of beautiful, fresh whipped cream on top of a pie? It looks professional. It looks amazing. You put the candles in, they like glow on top of this cloud.

Jessica: Glow on top of this cloud!

Rossi: It's gorgeous and it's so easy.

David: Well, this is spoken like a true person who has mastered pie crust, but plenty of people out there, the pie crust shrinks. It looks shabby. How do you get around that?

Rossi: No, no, no. I'm here for that one too. That's where you do a cookie crust. Okay. You do a cookie, just mix cookie crumbs or crushed up graham crackers with melted butter. Press it in. And then that's part of like if you have your full topping coverage, like you don't even really see the edges of that crust. Works totally fine. And I'll even say this, you can do a store-bought graham cracker crust if you really need to.

David: You're actually convincing me a little bit here because you could also press that cookie crust into a tart pan and get a very beautiful scalloped edge and then fill it with cream. Okay. I'm actually being convinced.

Rossi: Here's one more, is that it is so much easier to transport. The amount of times I made like a beautiful cake and then been like, well, how do I get this to the party? Like I get really nervous. I live in LA, I have to drive everywhere, and it just, you can't transport it well, it never looks as good, whereas a pie comes in its serving vessel. You just carry it with you. It's already gorgeous in its beautiful pie tin, whether you like, are using the store-bought pie crust or otherwise. So it's also much easier to get to where you need to go to celebrate.

David: That's a good point.

Jessica: Now the one pitfall of, of the pie, although I, I do obviously I like it. Who doesn't like a chocolate cream pie? Only a maniac. But I do think it's a little trickier to put the candles in a pie. You know, you like, how do you stick 'em into that cloud of whipped cream? But you know, that's okay. I'm getting so old that maybe I don't need the full compliment of candles, edge to edge anymore. You know?

David: Do you stick a candle in your pie, Rossi?

Rossi: Yeah. Yeah. Well I did one last month, a lemon ... oh, it was Bill Smith's Atlantic Beach Pie. It's like basically a lemon flavored Key lime pie. And it's got like, it's a soft filling, but it still was stiff enough that you could put it like through the whipped cream, into the filling.

I think I had like five candles on there. It was very, like I said, very elegant. So that is my Jess-opinion in honor of my mentor. Jessica, I hope I did you justice.

Jessica: You did. An impassioned defense.

David: Thanks, Rossi.

Jessica: David, we've just about reached the end of this episode, but before we go, I have one final question for you. What are you baking this week?

David: This week I'm making the sweet version of our Recipe of the Year, which is the Big and Bubbly Focaccia. I've made that Big and Bubbly Focaccia so many times and I actually have taken it sweet before. I put sparkling sugar on top of it, I put chocolate into it. This focaccia goes sweet very well, and I really like the interplay of the olive oil with the sweetness. It's really nice. But Sarah Jampel, our Test Kitchen Director, she came out with a brand new recipe for Cinnamon Roll Big and Bubbly Focaccia. And it is, I got to taste this during testing. Why is it better than focaccia and cinnamon rolls? It's so good.

Jessica: Ugh. I wish, I wanna make that too.

David: How about you?

Jessica: Well, I feel like you've convinced me to try to make this cinnamon roll focaccia, so maybe I'll add that to the list. But I'm definitely gonna make our new recipe for snacking pizzas because they are a thing that my kids really love. It's basically like a personal pan pizza. They bake on a sheet pan, so you don't need any, like, you don't need to bust out your baking steel or stone. And they're just like these cute little pizzas that you can have as an afterschool snack or just like a very simple dinner. And what I like about it is our house is a house divided when it comes to pizza toppings. By which, I mean, my children want cheese pizza, maybe pepperoni, but nothing else. So everyone can kind of customize their own little pizza. And that plus like a big salad is just a nice little dinner. So many good things to bake, so little time. But that does it for us today. Thank you for tuning in and joining us here on Things Bakers Know.

David: Remember to like and subscribe on Apple Podcast, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen.

Jessica: And leave us a review while you're there or share this episode with a friend.

David: We'll see you back here next week to talk about all things sourdough. In the meantime, don't forget, please follow the recipe. Just follow the recipe.

Jessica: Things Bakers Know is hosted and executive produced by me, Jessica Battilana.

David: And me, David Tamarkin.

Jessica: Rossi Anastopoulo is our senior producer, Chad Chenail is our producer and engineer. Original music by Megan and Marcus Bagala. You'll find some of our favorite birthday cake recipes, as well as other recipes for what we're baking this week in the show notes. 

This episode featured Cheryl Day who ran the legendary Back in the Day bakery for years in Savannah, Georgia, and Bronwen Wyatt, the baker behind Bayou Saint Cakes in New Orleans. Things Bakers Know is a King Arthur Baking Company podcast.